All aboard the atheist bus

[Guest dr rockster]

why not? infinity is beyond human comprehension, and so is god (well supposed to be, organised religion seems to often try and personify god)

Na,I can comprehend infinity intellectually at a human level and use it in mathematical equations so CAN make sense of it although I've not experienced it and the 'so is God' bit I don't buy either as he is not around(I'm not denying God but he hasnt revelead him/he/itself) so can't be comprehended now can he?

God is totally in the subjective abstract,he is just what you make of him if anything.

[Guest roger]

But does 'beliveing in belief' or 'having faith in faith' make anything more true? I don't think so.

Probability is a bit of an unfortunate term to use about god, I doubt many xians would want to use that argument.

[Guest roger]

my point being, religion is stupid, because it's unprovable one way or the other until death, by which time if you were wrong then it's too late anyway, so why bother being athiest/theist? better just to get on and survive

Pascals wager?

[scraglor]

i don't see how anyone can truly comprehend infinity, maybe i think to logically, i can understand the word and what it means, but to try and understand travel in any direction for unlimited distance forever and why such a thing exists in the first place is a bit beyond me

saying because god created it seems like a bit of a cop out too religion to me seems just like the human mind needing to have an answer for something unexplainable. apart from (at least the fundamentals of) hinduism, which makes more sense to me, we are all one and the same, god is everything, you're god, i'm god consciousness is creation and we all come from the same shizzle

Edited November 2, 2008 by scraglor

[scraglor]

But does 'beliveing in belief' or 'having faith in faith' make anything more true? I don't think so.

Probability is a bit of an unfortunate term to use about god, I doubt many xians would want to use that argument.

only to the person beleiving it, and at the end of the day, that's all that matters.

i like terry pratchetts 'DEATH' at the end, you get whatever it is you thought you had coming to you!

bring on the dancing girls!!

[Guest roger]

And do you know, if religious people left it at that, I wouldn't have a problem with any of them!

[scraglor]

exactly

[DtH]

theres a few topics related to this but i cannot dissect my thoughts enough to separate into different posts, it seems slightly fragmented, but ima just let it flow.

plenty!

i think in doing so people can gain better insight into their misconceptions about life/reality and experience a breaking down of belief systems (whatever they are, doesnt have to be related to spirituality or religion), the lens is wiped clean for a minute and we can see things closer to what they actually are, rather than trying to rationalise or deal with reality solely through left brain analysis which can lend itself to a narrow window of perception that tends not to encompass the whole picture. 'spirituality' (i know, the term is a turn off in and of itself) is not a left brain pursuit thus discussion on a msg board about it can seem futile at times(to me, at least). weed allows more direct access to right brain functionality but how you use that then becomes important and i dont think lasting realisations can be had with synthetics.

reasoned judgment plays a part too.

Both reasoning and judgement are based on beliefs. Hense the reason why it's possible to make poor judgments and reason poorly. All religions are based on reasoned judgement. To insinuate that it's possible to calculate the probability for the existence or non existence of god is to reason poorly.

ever turned reasoned judgement off for any length of time?

Does 20 years of heroin fit the bill?

But seriously,if you apply reasoning and judgement to man made religion you must come to the conclusion its not divinely inspired.

But that doesnt answer the fundamental question of where the universe ultimately came from although even that may be beyond our

comprehension,what with what has been revealed by physics there may be realms of existence so strange and different,well,we just don't know?

Mans hope for immortality stems from his darker simpler past,when the supernatural was the only explanation and the priests sold it to us,man they did a sales job on us lot.

And look at the world now?

hi doc. i didnt know that, you made it through 20 years of smack, you did well to make it through and still be alive.

i think i saw you talk once or twice on here about your obes, i might be wrong. can i ask if they were related to the heroin?

before the priests there was something else...i think we're all largely in agreement that the precursor to religion was an ancient knowing based on nature, supernature came after, a distortion occured where 'sorcery' and 'witchcraft' (using natures elements ALONE to guide ones journey) was burned on a stake and we were force fed an organisations warped ideal that was solely looking out for its own interests. we know our understanding of reality is limited, so why do we insist on putting a limit or label on what reality is? its like trying to recork a champagne bottle. a damn shame. whether god exists or not is largely irrelevant to our existence and development as hooman beans, so is the measuring or labelling of reality via science, imo. it serves to keep the (distracted) focus onto the external.

i find a lot of atheists are simply screaming, 'the religious are intellectually inferior people for blindly believing in something so lacking in valid basis or foundation'

but it is no better or worse than a theist saying that the athiests are destined for 'hell' for their lack of belief in 'god'.

they are opposing polar extremes and both are equally ludicrous to me. imo in terms of spirituality teh quest is a lone one essentially and pointing fingers at others for their belief/lack thereof really does nothing at all to help with that. 'but the religious folk are imposing their beliefs on others!' well imo atheists have now joined that club, too.

[ninorc]

Hi rockster, after 20 years of heroin, you stopped using. I remember you saying that you went cold turkey and kicked off with your will power. But you did attend NA meetings for a while. Am I not right in thinking that NA is full of recovering addicts for whom will power isn't enough? Indeed, they start out on the 12 step path by owning that the addiction is stronger than they are and they need help from a 'higher power', which is God as they conceive it to be. So, my question is, down at NA, what's the favoured deity?

[Guest dr rockster]

That's a good question ninorc as the higher power thing a lot of folk have a problem with at NA,especially for Atheists but they say you don't have to acknowledge a higher power as a religious or metaphysical thing,make it what you want,maybe as a kind of surrender of the ego thing,acknowledging you are not the centre of the universe is all.

I never did work the 12 steps as I'd have to give up cannabis and I don't want to do that although there is a bit of hypocrisy with NA and smoking cigarettes,as during breaks at meetings everybody is outside toking ciggies like a baby sucking on Mama's titty so why are ciggies are allowed and canna isnt,well,if that was the way they would have no customers and they HAVE to allow for nicotine,its rank hypocrisy but also realistic for the reasons I mentioned.

I remember saying I stopped but I don't remember saying I did it with my own willpower because the expression doesnt sit well with me vis a vie going through withdrawal,its not a straight question of 'willpower' methinks but your circumstances shape your thinking on the matter,sure,bottom line is its your decision but a successful withdrawal is not based on willpower alone.

My main coming off(as I had many relapses)was when the love of my life and I split up to come off gear on our own as you can't do it as a couple.

You make excuses for your lover(oh darling can't bear to see you in such pain)and go score again.

When I came off I came off methodone and I did it for love but when we got back together after 6 months(we were still junk sick actually) it just didnt work anymore,bit of a choker,to say the least.

But I took what I wanted from NA and its quite funny,many folk use it as a dating agency once folk come off and work the steps and I just mention that because different folk get different things out of NA.It does become almost a social scene rather than a support network but I stayed well from that side as I was fucked up enough at the time without getting into scenes with other emotionally damaged goods!

[DtH]

hi doc. i didnt know that, you made it through 20 years of smack, you did well to make it through and still be alive.

i think i saw you talk once or twice on here about your obes, i might be wrong. can i ask if they were related to the heroin?

so thats a no then?

Edited November 3, 2008 by deckthehalls

[showgirl]

I would say for the best for all concerned is a secular society that is accepting of all views. remember the Enquizition and beware the christians. I used to think that in the west we are a christian society and that whoever lives here should accept basically give in to our ways. Not right. I am a Cristian but one of the things I dislike is the born again bunch jumpin all over me in there imature furfur to change me and the world. Peace be to all Showgirl

[Baked Ben]

Now I'm not an atheist, but I am by no means religious, I am totally Agnostic, hell I don't know how the universe was made, and I doubt any of you do!

I get super pissed with religious fanatics claiming I'll go to hell for not believeing, but if a religious person wants to have a nice chat about what they believe in and why, I'll always listen.

Atheists are always going on about how they hate having eligious views imposed on them, so why go and impose your views on others. Of course with exceptions, but religious people are very often nice, caring people, there is no need to go out of your way to blatently put them and their beliefs down.

Atheists projecting this message are as bad as gehovas witnesses in my opinion, they are doing exactly the same as them - projecting their views (althoguh at the other extreme end of the spectrum) on others.

Edited November 18, 2008 by Baked Ben

[Guest roger]

Atheists projecting this message are as bad as gehovas witnesses in my opinion,

If people wish to talk about religion, the atheist position is just as valid and there is no reason that it should be curtailed. Don't forget they got this idea from the church in the first place.

Edited November 18, 2008 by roger

[Baked Ben]

I think I may have phrased it wrong, as I agree with you, they are as valid as eacother, but often I hear from atheists about the pain that is a "gehovas witness" . Projecting messages on buses like this is exactly the same, but with the opposite extreme of the point of view being expressed, if you get what I'm saying.