Trichoderma Harzianum & Vesicular Arbuscular Mycorrhizas

[Guest Dr Benways Assistant]

A I right in thinking that truffles have that symbiotic relationship with the trees they live under?

e2a: sorry ignore me I was thinking about breakfast.

Edited October 20, 2007 by Dr Benways Assistant

[oldtimer1]

I find this fascinating oldtimer1,

do these beneficial fungi occur in many parts of an English garden,or forest or everywhere throughout plants in nature?

Or is it something(various plant fungi) taken from specific areas that certain plants grow in?

Doc yes they do, if you go somewhere like old areas of the new forest all the trees are connected as one by fungus, in the rhizosphere, or the root zone as its know to us mere mortals, there are also many other plant friendly bacteria and fungi. Together these are known as beneficial microbes. There is a constant battle between these and pathogenic microbes.

On the other hand they have mostly been eliminated from intensively cultivated chemically farmed land.

A I right in thinking that truffles have that symbiotic relationship with the trees they live under?

e2a: sorry ignore me I was thinking about breakfast.

I’m not sure that fungi like truffles, horse mushrooms, aminita muscariea ie that live off of tree roots, do so in a mutually beneficial way, or are partly parasitic, they are as far as I know not debilitating or pathogenic to the host trees and some truffles for instance tend to kill grasses growing under their host trees. To me symbiosis, is where the partnership mutually beneficial, could be wrong about that.

I feel that the fact that the best beneficial fungi and bacteria are being sought out and cultured, is brilliant.

[oldtimer1]

Nearly all plants have a Mycorrhizal relationship, in fact it is the odd plant out that doesn't

e2a: Doc the link Arbuscule posted has is a very good synopsis and there's a massive article here.

I think the brassicas don't, but then again trichoderma would colonise a brassicas root system and probably give some protection against things like clubroot.

Its interesting, I first came across trichoderma when Dutch elm was ravaging the elms in the early seventies. They were drilling small holes to the cambial layer below the bark and inserting pellets of spores. Unfortunatly the aggressive pathogen won 90% of the time.

[Tommy Terpene]

Doc yes they do, if you go somewhere like old areas of the new forest all the trees are connected as one by fungus, in the rhizosphere, or the root zone as its know to us mere mortals, there are also many other plant friendly bacteria and fungi. Together these are known as beneficial microbes. There is a constant battle between these and pathogenic microbes.

On the other hand they have mostly been eliminated from intensively cultivated chemically farmed land.

I feel that the fact that the best beneficial fungi and bacteria are being sought out and cultured, is brilliant.

But if water companies are putting in chlorine and chloramine to the water supply(which doesn't apparently dissipate over time) aren't we just killing everything in that microbiological ecosystem anyway?

tt

Edited October 20, 2007 by Tommy Terpene

[oldtimer1]

TT I understand where you are coming from, rain or Ro water would inhibit the micro flora less, that being said I talked to one of the companies about chlorine in the tap water, he said they knock back their microbial mix several times with chlorine while they are fermenting to developing a more robust culture, they are also adding bacteria that neutralise harmful levels of salt in soil and water {sulphates, chlorine, sodium, etc}. This is mainly for treating agricultural land damaged by industrial farming and not us.

I don’t think mycorrhizals are that effected by the chorine levels in tap water, soil movement and mechanical cultivation are what damages them the most. They are very susceptible to fungicides.

[buildAbong]

If that works out and I have no reason to see why not we could start making our own RootGrow from the previous grows roots. That would certainly be an interesting development.

I would really love to try some of this, but have no idea how to tell if the roots have been "infected". Any ideas?

Is there a physical difference between mychorizzal infected roots and those without?

I take it that a straight wash of the roots then drying as normal would suffice? or could i just fire in some of the root mass into the compost?

bAb

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

Hi buildAbong,

If you've used RootGrow, AKTrivator or another fungal inoculant you can probably assume the roots have been 'infected' and are probably worth try. I wouldn't wash them off just gently shake off any excess compost and hang up to dry somewhere dark and cool.

Apart from looking at samples under a microscope and using scientific dies I think it might be a tad difficult spotting any fungi mycelieum. You could take 2 clones infect 1 and not the other and at next pot up see if there is a difference in the root structure. If one is clearly better it's worked if there's no difference it hasn't and it's back to buying RootGrow.

Good luck,

Felix.

[BluePixie]

You could take 2 clones infect 1 and not the other and at next pot up see if there is a difference in the root structure. If one is clearly better it's worked if there's no difference it hasn't and it's back to buying RootGrow.

Good luck,

Felix.

Make it 3 - 1 control, 1 with dried root matter, and another with fresh RootGrow. In fact do 6 or 9 for a half decent sample size

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

Now that sounds like a plan

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

Hi Tsk,

sorry for the delay in replying. I've had a look around and the nearest product to Voodoo Juice would be something from Vita Link called BioPak, Bio-Pac, BioPak depending how each store lists it. A quick search on Google should throw up some sources. This claims to consist of a number of bacteria, primarily Nitrogen fixers and Phosphorous solubilisers along with various growth stimulants and organic nutrients. This works out a bit cheaper than Voodoo juice and if you forget their instructions on usage a little can go a very long way.

There are two versions one as a water soluble powder and one as a liquid, the powder is preferable as the bacterial spores are likely to remain in a suspended state longer as a dry powder. In a liquid they may well activate and then die back inside the bottle.

I've been using this one for a couple of months now and it seems to be quite good, When applying forget their instructions and just bubble with molasses and water (aqurium air pump + air stone) till you see foam at the top of the vessel, you'll know then that there is bacterial activity going on, and water into the compost as per normal. 1/2 to 1 teaspoon of molasses per litre of water and half teaspoon of inoculant.

Depending on the size of your grow a 200ml pot could last years.

This inoculant is only for the Rhizosphere and won't provide much in the way of protection from fungi or bacteria other than by squatters rights. It's not worth spraying onto the leaves to provide protection from LSF as with some other bacterial/Trichoderma inoculants.

Hope that helps,

Felix.

[withnail]

Excellent work yet again felix.

Thanks to this topic and your aother or trichoderma I will be totally re-modelling my compost for my next grow will hopefully improved results and fingers crossed giving the LSF a terminal kick in the arse.

Rockdust -check

Rootgrow-check

canna acktrivator- to be sourced

Anything else I need?

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

Hi Withnail,

Thanks man but we've had a huge input from OT and everyone else, it's like a group thing and the whole organic side of the community is getting involved. It's been a great topic to be reading and I've personally learnt a huge amount going over the threads. I'd like to thank OT once again for sharing his vast wealth of knowledge.

You seem to have a good list there, if you don't already have it Billingtons Mollasses is good for activating the bacteria and some seaweed extract for the fungi would be good. If you could lay hold of some of the bacteria/Trichoderma inoculant that would be handy but it's like getting hens teeth at the moment.

Good luck,

Felix.

[Arbuscule]

Hi all,

I'm compiling a similar check-list to Withnail:

Rockdust - check

Rootgrow - check

Innoculants - check

Only item that seems to be missing is Molasses.

I'm using Biobizz Lite Mix currently and then Biobizz All-Mix.

If I add the above items, plus Molasses, will this be sufficient ? Do I perhaps also need Seawwed extract other than the Maxicrop ? - I get confused over seaweed.

Excellent thread Felix. I'd reiterate my thanks for starting it. Thanks also to experienced contributors who are helping the rest of us, here as elsewhere

Cheers,

Arbuscule

[Davey Jones]

Yeah mate get some mollasses and seaweed extract theres a few different manufacturers maxicrop chase do SM3

Theres two seaweed products that concern us

Seaweed meal

Seaweed extract

Meal is an ammendment that is mixed with the compost before planting anything this is all we do with this product

Seaweed extract is a liquid feed that adds minerals back to your compost and feed the fungi

I use both

Regards

Edited October 23, 2007 by Electric man 2

[distracted]

Only item that seems to be missing is Molasses.

Black Treacle is the same thing..... I use Lyle's Black Treacle you can get it from any supermarket in the UK