Whatwentwrong Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 I dunno man, you’d have to google it and check. ive been seeing issues with the normal nutes and auto’s and everyone is saying it’s rubbish. They don’t need more mag than a normal plant. Now there is auto flower specific nutes coming out so I agree we are likely to see nutes with “LED specific” written on them and no doubt people will argue it’s a con but if you need nutes and your growing autos why not try and auto flowering specific nute. May be a case of using a single bottle then and not having to supplement it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kali Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 each to their own mate what works for you doesn't necessarily work for the next man, more than one way to skin a cat as they say, like I said earlier you notice anything on the athena dry powdered nutes label that's different to other ratios of nutes, I think it could be the driving force behind not burning the shit out of them at them high ecs, anyway I don't really know fuck all and it's only my own thoughts so you can take them with a pinch of salt excuse the pun 4k 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen-ken Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202108.0460/v1/download 'The goal of the study is to determine the optimal concentration of N,P and K in the flowering stage of soilless cannabis production using RSM (DWC).....The findings suggest drug type cannabis responses well to Nitrogen and Phosphorus During the flower stage' (spoiler alert: N around 190mg/l, P around 80mg/l and K has yet to be studied properly and is estimated to be around 200mg/l but is cultivar specific....Ca 130mg/L Mg 45mg/l (2.9:1)) This would suggest most feeding schedules over supply both P and K leading to antagonism ("I just gotta have more cow bell ") I couldn't copy and paste it @Joolz .......would I be better downloading it to the site ? (I know links are frowned upon but its a university paper - let me know and Ill adjust it ) I thought @4kali would find his thoughts about Canna being verified would be cathartic.....Most nutes are one size fits all with very outdated 00's formula imo. The thought of running my tanks at 2.1 scares the shit out of me, but if the NPK was correct and present at the right levels.....The PH would have to stay at 5.6 ...nitrates instead of ammoniacal forms....sulphates instead of oxides. With above in place .........I can see you pushing to 2.1 EC no problem (the above study had no additional CO2 present but they where using a 1000w MH which could explain the increased vegetation and need for N.......its not peer reviewed yet so draw your own conclusions from the research If we look at Jacks fertilisers we can see there feeding approach mirrors this with minor adjustments....we see a huge P booster at the beginning of flower to set more sites. (one week)....they then go back to the flower formula N around 150PPM....only in the last week do we see the reduction of nitrogen and increase of Potassium to set the flowers and resin. PK Boosters at week 4 is for soil!!! we should reevaluate our use of them in soilless situations in my very limited opinion.....set the bud sites first....then grow the fuck out of them....then force them to produce the sticky icky. I suppose this is a quality over quantity discussion really.....I use lower nitrogen at week 4 for better flower.....Just because this is how I have always done it doesn't make me right tho ! 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen-ken Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 11 hours ago, 4kali said: sorry 4k waffling shit again I don't think your waffling shit......we have been paying the 'green tax' for fucking years and the formulas are not specific enough and definitely need adjustment 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen-ken Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 @4kali What I would really love to see is the PPM of any given element per the dilution rate.......then I wouldn't spend hours trying to work it out. P instead of P205 (P2O5 is 43.7% P) K instead of K2O Ca instead of CAO etc Then a nice list of PPM elements at the suggested dilution rate.....its a dicot, a special one, but still a plant that grows like most other dicots. https://www.yara.co.uk/crop-nutrition/farmers-toolbox/conversion-calculator/ If Im gonna pay for expensive nutes at least tell me what Im working with in the final solution and Ill pay it !!!!! (Ill give Athena that....they tell you exactly whats in it....rare dankness have jumped on the dry feed bandwagon I see as well.....the Phosphorus lie is becoming unraveled) 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSZZ Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 1 hour ago, zen-ken said: Most nutes are one size fits all with very outdated 00's formula imo. Thats without taking biostimulants and what they can achieve into account also. 1 hour ago, zen-ken said: The thought of running my tanks at 2.1 scares the shit out of me, but if the NPK was correct and present at the right levels.....The PH would have to stay at 5.6 ...nitrates instead of ammoniacal forms....sulphates instead of oxides. Lignosulphonates also are a big thing at the moment, expect to see more of that. I'm not as clued up on all of this as I would like (you and @Oldbear feel free to send me some links ). I can think of 3 brands off the top of my head ultilizing this technology atm. They work best at a super low pH also, about 5.2 was peak I was told. I'm still not entirely sold on this high EC thing, and I get that when everything is in ratio the plant will uptake it but cannabis is a photoremediator what it *wants* and *needs* are two very seperate things, and one of them paths doesn't lead to very nice weed. Even this less transpiration = less water use, higher EC. So its the same amount of nutrients being took up in a smaller shot of water - but irridiation from light is the only thing that drives transpiration, if plants aren't transpiring as much then they're using less of the light due to some other environmental factor - what is higher EC achieving? Cos I can't see that its helping to utilize the light anymore. 1 hour ago, zen-ken said: I suppose this is a quality over quantity discussion really..... Which leads me onto my next point that alot of the discussion we're getting at the moment about high ECs and dry backs are because of the crop steering hype, but by the token there are lots of memes talking about how its total boof mids. From what I've read and in my limited fucking about on the topic, I've probably been steering my plants vegetetively this entire time by keeping the pot as consistant moisture wise as possible and keeping a lower EC. I think the high EC and borderline death drybacks (which again, high EC and underwatering have always spelled disaster in my experience) result in some serious flowering stress response which really gets them stacking the weight on - and it carrys through to the weigh in, but at what cost to quality? I think there are ways you can steer with dry backs, low EC and environmental triggers to not quite the extreme we're being sold and achieve spectacular results and quality. FWIW I think its worth mentioning that Jungle Boys, Athena, Luxx Lighting and some other brands I can't remember are owned by the same dude, so take anything from them with a pinch of salt (pun not intended lol). If we're taking about dry salts, nutrient ratios, crop steering etc then I'd recommend everyone check out Ramsey Nubani, and Josh Neurilinger on Instagram. . 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 2 hours ago, GSZZ said: I think there are ways you can steer with dry backs, low EC and environmental triggers to not quite the extreme we're being sold and achieve spectacular results and quality This right here is what I'm currently researching. There's a lot of "corporate promotion" being sold as science. Psuedo science seems to be the new marketing tool. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Mix Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 I’m going back to Maxigro and Maxibloom I’ve used it in different places but not really soft water . Only additives I use with it being roots excel and Nitrozyme. Fairly cheap and imho better than veg+bloom that the jungle boys used to say was ace. Thought it was full of fillers tbh. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen-ken Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 (edited) While we are discussing this I found cleanse you can get from your local main hospital - food grade as well 1/4 of the price.(hypochlorous acid) Stack is probably kelpak ....( @GSZZ your knowledge here please) but I suspect Im right hence why they don't want it in the res. Balance is potassium silicate....take your pick. The rest is there but again transferring it into PPM is frustrating. I always feel like Im grossly underfeeding my plants in RDWC but anything over 1.3 and they Burn like fook.... even in the study they where comfortable at 1.9 - 2.1.....Watching the Ramsey video I see he attributes lower light levels for increased EC, then I see someone claiming to be running 1000 par at 2.5EC. I just want to get off the bullshit rollercoaster and get some nutrients that work Edited November 13, 2021 by zen-ken 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSZZ Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 Just now, zen-ken said: Stack is probably kelpak ....( @GSZZ your knowledge here please) So it reads and sounds like kelpak even the usage instructions are similar. I'd have to see some in person so I could look at the colour and have a sniff to know for sure. The other question is, how dramatic is the effect? Seaweed is best used once every few weeks, otherwise your plant becomes tolerant and it stops working, if it has a dramatic visual effect everytime it is used, then it could contain a class of growth regulators (important i didnt use retardant then) that are sourced from seaweed and algal extracts, but are kind of a bit naughty - they work in a similar manner to retardants like paclo, but via different route. I think instead of switching genes off (like a GA inhibitor) they over stimulate them so they kind of malfunction. Chances are its just Norwegian sea kelp though max profit £££££ 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Mix Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 Curious to if they have been in the industry as long as William Texier 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kali Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 opinions on calcium and sulfur ratios (core) and quality, anyone, compared to other off the shelve nutes 4k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kali Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 is there cal source not different from others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen-ken Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 Just now, 4kali said: opinions on calcium and sulfur ratios (core) and quality, anyone, compared to other off the shelve nutes 4k We should probably start another thread about this incredibly important topic.....but the guy didn't come back so I guess we are hardly derailing his thread If someone wants to gift me the three tubs of pro Ill give it a bash there, back on topic for a sec 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen-ken Posted November 13, 2021 Share Posted November 13, 2021 Just now, 4kali said: is there cal source not different from others Calcium nitrate instead of Calcium oxides is that what your asking ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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