Is cannabis wank?

[Arthur Mix]

@Cambium cheers that's what I struggled to express. I'm more practical than academic but I also up for discussing . That's why I asked did male or female grow first ? Chinese noticed fem and male and documented this early , but what happens before that, I feel that's the key to it all.

[guerillamann]

5 hours ago, Sargares said:

Use cannabis to improve whatever you're doing. Don't just use it for the sake of it. Keep a range of smokes on deck to keep things interesting and for a range of effects. 

 

Cooking? Smoke something that boosts your smell and taste. 

 

Going to walk the dog? Get something that puts a spring in your step and boosts colours. 

 

Hanging out with mates? Smoke something that makes you all laugh. 

 

Struggling to wind down? Smoke something that melts you. 

 

Etc etc. 

 

Don't smoke beyond your tolerance either if you're intending on being functional. Totally fine to just have one little rip on the bong or whatever.

 

When you're just smoking the same stuff all day long just for the sake of it.... Yeh that's wank. Mix it up. 

 

 

I think you and I preach from the same book brother!

I think everyone here could testify they've had some friends/family function and ended up getting farrrrr too wrecked to go or had a massively body stoned smoke when they could've just done with a little cerebral high to see them through. 

[GSZZ]

4 hours ago, Amarillo slim said:

@GSZZ I thought you might choose not to answer my questions.  And I won't continue to ask them. I didn't realise you had come back form a hiatus here, don't want to do the opposite of a warm welcome back by having a dig.  Take it easy.  

 

Its just discussion mate, these things always get a little heated but its no surprise we're all passionate about the same thing. I don't take any of this stuff to heart mate so please don't think you're spoiling anything. I thank you actually its been great to jump back into some good discussion thats got some substance and not the same old boring questions

 

I only didn't answer because its something we're going to go around in circles on, you don't see the value in male plants where as I do. Cambium has hit every point I would've liked to in a much more articulate way, I personally wouldn't fem lines but I see the value in them and I understand why people do it and why there is a demand for them in the market. I just hold the opinion that traditional male/female breeding is king and is/should be the foundation to any good fem line, the current way of creating fem lines is bad, it does and will continue to bottle neck the gene pool available to people. We can all agree that its all down to bad breeding, that ultimately got this discussion started that yes, most weed is wank because its bred badly and the whole femming thing has just compounded the problem and made it happen quicker.

[Amarillo slim]

2 hours ago, Cambium said:

So you're saying that all the genetic traits avaliable via traditional m/f reproduction, are avaliable in exactly the same way via f/f reproduction?

 

Yes. 

2 hours ago, Cambium said:

Anything I can read about that?

You got anything I could read on the contrary?  Why would/should there be a difference?  If there are sex linked traits then they would only not be present in the non-present males, seeing as we don't grow for males, this has little relevance. The same thing happens upon pollination with 50% genetics coming from each parent exact same as it would with pollen obtained from a male plant, only half the pollen grains aren't contributing a Y.  

In my eyes the claim that there is a difference is the one that should be required to produce evidence to support it.  You can read / listen to Clarke, Ryan Lee etc and they all agree there is not a difference as do a whole host of the top breeders these days including many that employ actual experts in genetics in the states where science can now be more involved due to legality.  

 

2 hours ago, Cambium said:

It isnt an appeal to nature. It's an explanation as to why cannabis is such a successful plant and how we should view our custodianship in that framework so that we can best preserve ths foundations of the species. The mechanism for its success is down to its diversity and its diversity is down to its dioecy and open pollination. I'm intrigued by the claim that this isnt the case and that it's all locked up in the female component. This leaves me with lots of questions, not least of all, why did cannabis evolve to be dioecious? As I understood it was the selective pressure to outcross, maybe not?

 

Yes very valid and well presented argument, and one many believe. Cannabis is an outcrosser, a species that in most cases will only resort to self fertilisation as a 'last resort'. Any healthy population should have a good amount of variation in it, as nature intended.  But in breeding there is need to steer the population in a certain direction, and to do this effectively there has to be at east some extent of inbreeding, selfing being the most extreme.  So, while for preservation work, cull some undesirable off-types such as runts or plants showing intersex issues, but other wise let nature take its corse to preserve that line and the variation within it.  You could go well into double figure F-gens here, creating a healthy IBL and so on...   What I'm talking about with the cutting edge is the production of extremely well adapted and productive plants for farmers / growers, giving them relatively uniform plants that all share the same crucial traits be it flowering times, terps, chemotype and so on.  Innovation and creation are different to preservation and so require a different approach.  Lets say you make a cross, grow out a handful of the F1s, self or sib mate the best plants, now grow out as many F2s as you can to find those special recombinations, the outliers, you find one out of hundreds or thousands thats the perfect blend of the genetics you were seeking to produce.  What do you do now? Go and look for a male plant that looks slightly similar in general morphology and cross your fingers? No, you self the plant, and/or find the next closest female that perhaps happens to have slightly more of another trait that could be valuable to select intermediates from at F3. Now you run those F3s and again make your selection(s), perhaps something new and interesting again has come about that you now seek to lock down and so on.  Through this you create something new, something of value with considerably less time and resources than it would have taken with traditional M/F breeding .  As long as at each step along the way you keep seeds of each generation, make back up crosses etc, then you run into issues you can always go back. If you start to see low vigour, backcrossing can be used to instil some more 'life' back into the line, or better still you use this new IBL to make new F1 hybrids with other lines, producing uniform plants that have the best traits from both, as well as possessing heterosis aka hybrid vigour.  This is the place for selfing and all female breeding. In a nut shell.  

 

2 hours ago, Cambium said:

I'm far from anti tech and really GM will lay the genome bare in the not to distant future, and as long as you have the right chip implant you'll be able to pick and mix from the entire spectrum of traits.

Interesting times to come... 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Amarillo slim

[Amarillo slim]

1 hour ago, Arthur Mix said:

but what happens before that

Monoecy.  Plants that were naturally intersex with both male and female parts on the same plant. 

 

[HazyDaze]

I suppose if the free fem seed for diaries  train stopped here many growers would have to actually buy seeds, imagine that!

 

They'd stop growing I imagine, I've seen Some run nothing but freebie fems forever   

 

[Cambium]

1 hour ago, Amarillo slim said:

You got anything I could read on the contrary?  

 

Seeing as you mentioned Clarke, this is a quote from a paper he did with Merlin, Cannabis Domestication, Breeding History, Present-day Genetic Diversity, and Future Prospects. Worth a browse if you haven't already.

 

Quote

More recently, “all-female” cultivars have been pro-
duced by transforming a female plant (XX) with hor-
mone applications to produce male flowers with viable
female (XX) pollen. The offspring of female plants fertil-
ized with female pollen are all female. Every seed produ-
ces a useful female plant and there is no need to cull
male (XY) plants, which provides the advantages of asex-
ual propagation, but in the convenience of a seed. Female
seeds lower genetic diversity for the same reason as
female cuttings, because there are no male plants, and
therefore sexual reproduction and recombination are all
but impossible without making hybrids. Furthermore,
although “all-female” seeds are sexually reproduced, only
a few female plants can successfully be transformed into
high-yielding pollen parents. Often, only one trans-
formed female pollen parent is used to fertilize seeds on
all the recipient females, and thus all of the “all-female”
offspring share the genes from that single transformed

pollen parent. For example, in Spain, a single “White
Widow” NLD/BLD hybrid cutting that transforms easily
(as well as reliably producing all female offspring) is used
to pollinate almost all of the individual female NLD/BLD
clones for which “all-female” F1 hybrid seed cultivars are
named. However, several seed companies also produce
single-selfed (S1) cultivars by crossing each transformed
female plant with other members of the same female
clone, with no apparent loss in vigor.
All-female cultivars have gained popularity in hobby
and indoor growing markets, and are also increasingly
used in commercial cannabis production regions. Well-
intentioned Westerners took modern NLD/BLD seeds to
Morocco in the 1980s and crossed their progeny with the
traditional Rif Mountain kif or local marijuana landrace.
Within ten years, traits from the “improved” Western
varieties were seen in nearly all the Rif populations. Pres-
ently, all-female cultivars are increasingly popular in
Morocco. The females are completely fertilized by male
plants growing nearby and the “better” improved seed is
sown the next year. In this way local landraces are
quickly swamped out by invasive genes, and are therefore
replaced by an unselected crossbred mix of Western vari-
eties that are poorly adapted to local environmental con-
ditions and processing methods. Mexico, Jamaica, and
Thailand have also lost many of their landrace popula-
tions (Figure 16).

 

As for the rest of your post. I just can't square what ammount to market forces and convenience against the existential threat to the species such "bad practice" can lead to especially if adopted widescale.

 

As has been said, all of this may become irrelevant as we advance down the GM road, but that's out of our hands and wont likely ever be in them. Seeds are very much in our hands and I hope we dont fuck it up as the generations go by. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by Cambium

[Exhale]

Zamal, a legendary cannabis strain from Reunion

Zamal, cannabis from Reunion Island

Cannabis or marijuana is a plant that currently can be found in all corners of the world. There is clear evidence that the cannabis plant originated in the Eastern/Central Asian regions. Then, it spread to the Middle East, and afterwards, to both the African and American continents.

Over the centuries, through traveling and commercial activities, humanity established cannabis cultivation in areas where it didn’t grow naturally. A perfect example of this expansion is Zamal, the strain that reached Reunion Island and acclimatized to the point of growing spontaneously as a pure landrace for over two centuries.

Where does the Reunion Zamal come from?

Reunion Island is located to the east of Madagascar, at approximately 21ºS latitude. The Arabs discovered this island in the 10th century, and in the 17th century, it was occupied by France, who introduced large coffee and sugar crops. Many slaves were sent to Reunion Island to work on these farms, and these are the people who introduced cannabis seeds for cultivation and consumption.

It is accepted that the slaves (where the name Zamal comes from) from Africa and India brought to Reunion Island different varieties of Zamal, traditionally used with spiritual, but also medicinal purposes, to alleviate pain, anxiety, and fatigue.

Natural selection, based on the survival of the lines and phenotypes better adapted to the climate of the island, gave rise to different types of strains, all of them with a distinct Sativa nature. The island's climate and photoperiod, propitious for all year round flowering, favoured Sativa plants the most, which developed vigorously despite the short days and were very resistant to humidity, with a flower structure much fluffier and airier than that of Indica strains.

Zamal's different genetic lines

Depending on the area, we can find different genetic lines that evolved according to factors such as their origins, the microclimate they adapted to, and the other cannabis lineages they were crossed with (or not), via the wind, animals, and even growers that could have taken the pollen (or the seeds) from one area to another. These different types of Zamal are designated by the term Kality, which indicates the species and/or quality of the harvest (ripe, with seeds, etc.).

Zamal Mangu' Carot

Zamal Mango Carrot is one of the most famous strains, and it’s characterized by a fruity terpene profile that combines notes of mango and carrot, and sometimes grows near mango trees. This strain is typically Sativa, very tall and with a long flowering time.

Zamal Kalité Poiw

This Zamal line offers a spicy aroma. Native to the Cirque of Mafate, Kality Poiw is also known in some circles as Peppermint Mallow, due to its purple tones and black pepper notes so characteristic of this strain.

Zamal Fil Rouge

Zamal Fil Rouge is mostly present in the Cirque de Salazie, but it’s also found in Mafate. As the name suggests, this strain develops red pistils during flowering.

Le sec au pied (dried while standing)

This is a very different Sativa lineage of the Zamal, whose alleged origin would be Afghanistan or North Africa. Very resinous, this weed induces intense effects, mainly because it’s generally harvested after drying it (hence the name).

Other strains names are Une Taff and Le Grain... They do not refer to the plant genetic traits, but the quality of the flowers: Une Taff owes this name to its devastating power, while Le Grain is a pollinated plant that, therefore, contains many seeds

www.alchimiaweb.com/blogen/zamal/

[Ranec]

 

Having tried to wrap my head around both viewpoints and their evidence I can say my own opinion remains unchanged - cannabis is an awesome plant, and whilst those with a vested interest will continue to use whatever means are available to turn a profit it's up to us as a community to keep the gene-pool topped up, be that the under cupboard growers smashing together the latest fashion fems or more traditional breeders doing things in their own time - all that really matters is that diversity is maintained....

 

[Exhale]

Quote

 

Nikolai Vavilov and cannabis in Afghanistan

 

Much of what we know about the evolution of cannabis in this area is thanks to the Russian botanist and geneticist Nikolai Vavilov, who led the Soviet Research Institute in Applied Botany and New Crops between 1920 and 1940. It was he who, during that time, recorded the Afghani variety of cannabis, leaves with broad leaflets and a more compact plant structure. In fact, thanks to his travels throughout Afghanistan he made two divisions of this variety, the Afghanica and Kafiristanica sub-varieties, both encompassed in what we now call Cannabis Indica.

 

According to several researchers, Cannabis Indica would have remained confined to the steep valleys of the Hindu Kush until well into the middle of the 20th century, so that most of the cannabis plants grown in Afghanistan itself and the surrounding countries were in fact Sativa varieties. The boom in hashish production during the 60s and 70s led to a much more widespread use of the Indica varieties from the Hindu Kush in both Afghan and Pakistani territory, as the yield was much higher in comparison. Logically, hybrids mixing Indica and Sativa would soon also be observed, often because of accidental pollinations between relatively close-by fields.

 

 

source: www.alchimiaweb.com/blogen/cannabis-afghanistan/

[Exhale]

One more, just a vid.

 

 

[Amarillo slim]

21 hours ago, Cambium said:

Seeing as you mentioned Clarke, this is a quote from a paper he did with Merlin, Cannabis Domestication, Breeding History, Present-day Genetic Diversity, and Future Prospects. Worth a browse if you haven't already.

 

 

  

Big fan of Clarke and Merlin, and a nice relevant quote.  

 

I don't disagree with anything they are saying in it, although of course its something they could have done a chapter on, and condensed into a paragraph there are some things they haven't touched on or gone into details about.

 

 

What they are referring to happening in Spain is more the practice of commercial seed production as apposed to real breeding. Of course while many people find donors that are easy to work with, good breeders seek out plants that are often very tricky to obtain large amounts of viable pollen from.  Requiring experimentation with reversal procedures, using large numbers / Sqmtr of space for donor plants as well as labour intensive manual harvesting of the pollen from stubborn male parts.  

 

And ofcourse the fact that these seed producers often use one pollen donor for many crossings due to it reversing readily, is something that to a large extent is also mirrored in traditional M/F seed production due to the inability to easily select good male plants.  For example there are many companies ive seen who near all their crossings are with one special male plant they’ve found which produces great offspring.  

 

The introduction of these ‘European’ genetics into places with landraces is obviously not good news, but you can’t blame the genetics for being available, or the people in these places for wanting to grow them.  Luckily there are many people who are doing great preservation work to ensure that these lines remain alive in their pure form. For example  @Aladdin.khalifa who is working with some of the Moroccan Riff landrace lines they mention.  Its people like him/her who by maintaining these pure lines from around the world are protecting the future of the gene pool, as well as providing the building blocks to create novel varieties ‘from scratch’ or to introduce some useful traits into modern cultivars through backcrossing etc such as resistance to pests/pathogens, drought and so on.  I have great respect for people who do preservation work.  

 

What Im interested in, and why I've been talking about what I have, is the creation of new cultivars for flower production in specific environments. This is where all female breeding comes into its own - to hasten and better the breeding process.  And as far as I can tell, there are no downsides to omitting males from these kind of programs. Of course there can be difficulties that occur with reversals etc, but these are outweighed by the increased effectiveness in selection and locking down of traits.  

 

Anyway, rabbiting on, and repeating myself in places. I don’t think any of us ever disagreed about the problems we're seeing with lack of diversity in cannabis, or the fact that the process of feminised seed production has added to the problem.  

 

The main thing that I wanted to get across, is that all of these issues with fems are indirect.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with female x female matings, the genetic combinations created are the same, again with the offspring produced and so on.  Thats the part I take issue with, when people perpetuate the myth that there is something necessarily inherently different about plants obtained through all female breeding other than the lack of males present.  

 

Good discussions. cheers 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Amarillo slim

[Aladdin.khalifa]

Hello @Amarillo slim and thank you for the kind words mate 

 

I couldn't agree more with what you said. Indeed, fem lines can allow breeders to develop sexually and genetically stable strain faster (Easier to stress test a female & the female attributes are directly observable on female plants).  However, because the reversion process can be tricky (Empty pollen sacs, sterile pollen, very little pollen...) big seedbanks wanting to produce large numbers of seeds tend to favor the females that are the easiest to reverse and yield the most pollen instead of the ones that pass on the best traits...

 

Also, the gene pool has become narrower and narrower over time so I believe that if we can preserve and breed with some landraces and old strains, it will be possible to develop new strains with very unique cannabinoids and terp profiles. 

 

It is also possible that the global cannabis legalization will help preserve what's left of the landraces as the market will increasingly ask for authentic flowers and hash/ local specialties.

Would you go all the way to Lebanon to smoke some Gelato Hash or would you rather enjoy some old school Lebanese Red?

 

Best,

[Amarillo slim]

23 minutes ago, Aladdin.khalifa said:

Hello @Amarillo slim and thank you for the kind words mate 

 

You deserve them! haha

 

23 minutes ago, Aladdin.khalifa said:

I couldn't agree more with what you said. Indeed, fem lines can allow breeders to develop sexually and genetically stable strain faster (Easier to stress test a female & the female attributes are directly observable on female plants).  However, because the reversion process can be tricky (Empty pollen sacs, sterile pollen, very little pollen...) big seedbanks wanting to produce large numbers of seeds tend to favor the females that are the easiest to reverse and yield the most pollen instead of the ones that pass on the best traits...

 

Yep exactly.  Same reason fems are associated with increased chances of intersex plants. People using the plants that are easy to produce male flowers on and make seeds with out of greed.  I always argue that properly made fems will generally show less intersex traits as the parent(s) are more likely to be properly stress tested prior to seed production.  

 

23 minutes ago, Aladdin.khalifa said:

Also, the gene pool has become narrower and narrower over time so I believe that if we can preserve and breed with some landraces and old strains, it will be possible to develop new strains with very unique cannabinoids and terp profiles. 

 

Ive been playing around with landraces on and off for about a decade now. As I mostly breed for outdoors at northern latitudes some of the few types that intrigued me the most were South African varieties, trouble being they are often prone to intersex problems.  Im working with some new stuff at present though, some true BLDs and NLDs that have been carefully kept alive for decades in the pure form and so on, as well as some collected at source.  Its these projects that I believe hold potential for actually creating something new and of worth.  Not just crossing together some cookies and cake like everyone else seems to be doing at the moment.  

 

23 minutes ago, Aladdin.khalifa said:

It is also possible that the global cannabis legalization will help preserve what's left of the landraces as the market will increasingly ask for authentic flowers and hash/ local specialties.

Would you go all the way to Lebanon to smoke some Gelato Hash or would you rather enjoy some old school Lebanese Red?

 

Yes, I hope one day that people will be able to go into a supermarket and buy some fair trade temple balls, or thai stick direct from the regions as they might with coffees for example.  People mostly just want super stinky dense buds that get you mashed because of prohibition.  Some of the best stuff I ever smoked was some compressed stuff that looked like dog shit and was full of seeds and some male flowers. Used to be called 'Thai brick', had the most trippy yet giggly high. Very strange plant though that would never be practical to grow indoors, especially under prohibition.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Amarillo slim

[Aladdin.khalifa]

Thanks @Amarillo slim, coming from you that means a whole lot!

 

Indeed it's a shame that fem seeds have such a bad rep whereas fem seeds done right can actually be more sexually and genetically stable than most regs...

It is very hard to line breed using males and females and you have to grow out the offspring of each potential male.

 

Nice!! Have you seen a lot of south African plants displaying the intersex trait even outdoors? It is much more common indoors usually. 

I love what you do mister Slim, keep up the good work!!

 

Yes, that would also be a dream of mine. Amsterdam was pretty much like that until about 12 years ago.. I remember smoking some Thai, Jamaican, temple ball...

Some pure Sativas don't even look frosty and yet, the effect can be soooooo trippy 

 

Cheers,