LED's. Dutch Passion thoughts and experience

[superx]

How much heat do they kick out? Will extra heating be required during lights on in a cold english house?

good point..

[rasta]

The man is right Led have come forward in leaps and bounds in the last 12 months hydrogrow led have invested huge dollars into research. I bit the bullet and forked out $1700.00 on a 336watt panel with 1watt leds Fucking awesome unit.

This is what the company said about this panel they produce a par watt equal to what a 750watt hps would produce Now remember this is what the company said not me :-)

I have only just finished my first grow with it and as far a producing more than my 600 hps did It didnt but thats not the lights fault its mine the room needs some tweaking for example led light need the room to be run a little warmer instead of the 72f or so range they need 85F and nutes need to be reduced in strength.

The real up side is they last 10 years so no bulbs replaced every 2 or 3 grows and half the power costs to run.

Most growers out they keep saying Led is for shop lighting and torches thats true if your using cheap led lights that produce 0.25 watts and in the wrong spectrum but there is also another range of leds the Horticultural range much more powerful and in the right spectrum range.

Also the main reason people like Phillips lighting don't invest in led grow light technology is they don't get repeat customer sales for replacement bulbs. You sell an led that's it no more bulbs for 10 years can you imagine how much money they would loose just 1 grower would spend 1200 dollars in 10 years on bulbs time that but 10000 grower they have lost 12000000 in 10 years and that's only for 10000 people. There are a shit load more growers in the world than that so you can see why there not keen on them in 10 years they would go broke from lose of bulb sales ( there main source of income)

Cheers rasta

A converted led man

[rasta]

Also the main reason led lights only last 10 years is not the led breaking down but the led power supply so you could just replace the power supply

Cheers rasta

Edited February 13, 2012 by rasta

[Halfatree]

Is the cost not off set in a quite a short period of time, by the fact your power consumption is cut by half. Thats a huge saving on current elecy prices.

They only need to come down slighty for them now to be worth while. I was suprised at the results of those hydrogrow systems.

Where does this idea of cutting power consumption by half come from, has someone actually produced around the 2g per watt mark with them? From what I've seen yield per watt appears to be lower for led than HPS at the moment making the power consumption worse, can point me in the direction of a diary?

Well if you read tony's opening post, you would see the part that a 300w led panel is on par with a 600w HPS. So I was only going on this info. 300 being half of 600.

If you really want to see if the claims are true, hydrogrow the makers of these lights offer a money back gurantee. These are a little different to the lights you may of seen selling on ebay and such.

[net2-3]

Well if you read tony's opening post, you would see the part that a 300w led panel is on par with a 600w HPS. So I was only going on this info. 300 being half of 600.

If you really want to see if the claims are true, hydrogrow the makers of these lights offer a money back gurantee. These are a little different to the lights you may of seen selling on ebay and such.

I did see that in Tony's post, I just remain sceptical about it. I will welcome any innovation that helps us use less power (legality and growing in the sunshine in the garden would be ideal ). I've watched with interest every LED grow I've found on this site and I certainly haven't seen any indication they can outstrip an equivalent wattage HPS 2:1 in terms of yield. What I have seen is people spending large amounts of money on lights and producing unexceptional yields. If there is good evidence of LEDs clearly outgoing HID that I would be very interested to see it.

Because I grow in the loft at the moment and for much of the year my light is 100% efficient. All of the heat that it produces is required, without it I would need to provide the same power in electric heating. If LEDs need a warmer grow space that could increase overall power consumption for many as space heating requires large amounts of energy, particularly in a ventilated growroom.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Owderb
Multi quote removed

[*DJ*]

heating your room a extra 12 hours longer a day is useing double, just to save half somewhere else? (LED lighting) cant see a saving myself, if anything, it will cost more to heat a room and run a LED, might be wrong, but thats how i see it!

dj..

Edited February 14, 2012 by *DJ*

[DutchPassionTony]

This is one of the more sensible discussions I have seen on this topic, I was half expecting to have to abandon the thread. So allow me to throw another angle to the debate, one that hasn't been mentioned much yet - the issue of spectral output. Below is a chart showing HPS vs LED output. The graph is from Hydrolab, the people that made the LED panels you saw in the Think Different guess the yield contest. But the graph would look pretty similar from anyone of several vendors of the panels as one thing they are all agreed on is the need for mainly red and blue LED's (to correspond with chlorophyll A and chlorophyll B absorption requirements.

The first thing that struck me about this graph is that the output of the LED looks nothing like the HPS. A lot of the HPS energy is used to produce the 550nm - 610nm wavelengths. Whereas the LED gives most output in red (75% of the LED's are red), there is a small amount of blue (10-15% of the LED's are blue) and a small amount of green LED. All the LED folk agree on red and blue. For teh last 10-15% of diodes opinions vary - some use orange LED, some white, and some green. So for those people wondering why LED uses less Watts than a comparable performing HPS the answer lies there. LED's do not have to power loads of orange and yellow LED output.

I am trying to arrange a gram per watt grow with some growers and LED suppliers to see what is possible. Perhaps more than a gram per watt is achievable, some in the LED business say they can definitely get more. Remember that LED panels have only, in the last 12 months hit threshold performance levels. It will take time to get detail into the picture. I am trying to show people what is happening on the technology horizon and how it might affect growers a few years down the line, I am not claiming to have all the answers but I am putting my traditional LED prejudice to one side and looking at this in a calm way.

[wanabuyabank?]

I am trying to arrange a gram per watt grow with some growers and LED suppliers to see what is possible. Perhaps more than a gram per watt is achievable, some in the LED business say they can definitely get more. Remember that LED panels have only, in the last 12 months hit threshold performance levels. It will take time to get detail into the picture. I am trying to show people what is happening on the technology horizon and how it might affect growers a few years down the line, I am not claiming to have all the answers but I am putting my traditional LED prejudice to one side and looking at this in a calm way.

So when do you think they will become viable for most percy growers? If decent ones are around 1k now they have an awful lot of work to do to get them to what is affordable for most - even 3 times a decent hps kit is about £300. The heat point is a good one as well as in cold(er) wet(ter) climates (where most grow by artificial light) the heat from the light is needed, certainly in winter. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul and I'm not sure it is a selling point that LED makers should concentrate on!

[compostverte]

They're a diffused light source and we aren't growing lettuce.

What seems to make a huge difference is to concentrate your light into a near point-source and have it some distance away.

If I was forced to use LEDs for some bizarre reason, I would probably build them into a water-cooled cylinder and wrap the plants around it - like I did with vertical fluorescents 15 years ago.

The trouble is that what we're doing is illegal. I can just see people taking their ineffective lamps back complaining that they only produced half as much lettuce as the equivalent wattage of HPS.

Find me a genuine producer of LED lighting (other than the likes of Philips) who doesn't market them like snake oil. Believe me I've tried - and it's even the case with domestic lighting.

That and of course a large proportion of grow diaries are being written by inexperienced growers who smoke way too much for their own good.

My two 250 watt HPS ballasts plus 3 lamps cost me £100 each in about 1996 - which was a lot then ... replacement lamps cost me a tenner.

Most people should spend a lot more on ventilation before worrying about PAR lumens et al...

Edited February 14, 2012 by compostverte

[rasta]

Ok a little info here on just how far led have come in the last 12 months Hydrogrow produce the led i use and in the last 6 months they have produced another lens the x-2.

These lenses have been around for a while but hydrogrow have refined them for grow lights and have refined them yet again this is there par watts graph on no lens x-1 and the new x-2

What the lens does is refocus all the wasted light back down with do degradation to the spectrum

cheers Rasta

Edited February 14, 2012 by rasta

[rasta]

This one shows the par output of a 336x pro 3watter and a 1000watt hps

cheers Rasta

[Owderb]

Rasta... graphs and words written by the makers mean nothing to me and I suspect to many others also

What we want is for experienced cannabis growers to tell us how they are now at least equal to HID's not manufacturers or even lettuce growers....Cannabis growers. And even then I'd need solid proof before I even entertain purchasing

If you or anyone else wants to prove how good they really are then there's only one way and it doesnt include any sales pitch words. Are you after a job with them

And as for those talking about saving energy. If you live in this country then like as already been mentioned you are going to need supplementary heat while the lights are on if they are going to run as cool as some are bragging

Once again its already been mentioned how can they promote that as a positive?

Ive been hearing that LED's are just about ready for obliterating HID's for over 10 years now so please forgive my and a few others cynicism

Lets hope that one day someone does come up with some great LED's that wont need supplementary heating or come with a price tag nearing a mortgage when the good old HPS does exactly what it says on the tin. It grows cannabis and grows it pretty damn good, or it does in my house

ED...How come they never really mention penetration because when I grow sats I want my nigh on 3ft long buds, just like I do with my hps

Owd

Edited February 15, 2012 by Owderb

[Laphroaig]

I couldn't agree more (and I ain't sucking up). LED's and more particularly LED manufacturers have poisoned their own credibility with spurious claims for years. Unless you can show your own actual consistent results proving they produce better crops than equivalent wattage HID lighting you're just regurgitating their hype. If you climb on their bandwagon, that's your credibility in the toilet, people will simply shake their head at your ignorance and gullibility and get on with their day.

I'm actually shocked that a seed company would promote such a blatant attempt to rip off the customers they rely on. I know you have to make money, but really.

Peace

Edited February 15, 2012 by Owderb

[rasta]

Why is it when people say the word LED everybody jumps up and down and

Do i work for or want a job with a led company no do i get money for what im saying no was led technology crap 4-5 10 years ago yes Why because they were all using signal leds no high power leds.

Are there heaps of crap led light out there YES shit loads most come from crappy ebay sellers there the people that make it hard for the more reputable company's.

Also yes there are a lot of thread out there with negative feedback on led but most of these people have chosen to use the crappy ebays lights. If you take the time to look and not just on this cannabis site but some of the many other sites you will find positive threads and there getting more common as the technology gets better.

Its funny how so many want to bag them out but yet they have never tried them only because they have heard they dont work.

Ive read heaps of threads here where people have produced 3-4-5 or 6 ounces from a 600hps is that low yes but does it mean a 600hps dosent work no it means the person using it hasent got there growing down pat with that light. The same goes for led you need to tweak your grow environment to suit the light you are using. Most give up after 1 grow instead of trying a few more times

I regards to the graphs yes they can get boring but they also provide some information that is vital to plant growth not all manufactures lie.

As i said before i have completed one grow with a led light was i impressed with the results very much so i used half the power less than half the nutes and only produced 2 ounces less thats pretty good in my books.

Im going to do a side by side grow in a few weeks 600 vs 336 led will post in grow diary as it progresses.

Also in regards to heat yes i have the same problem in winter my room gets cold even here in Australia but i overcome that with a simple 1 minute timer I set my fan to come on for 1 minute every 6 minutes to replenish the air . My room stays nice and warm and the plants don't suffer 1 bit from not having a constant air flow my yield stays the same

I know im guna cop flack for these comments but such is life

Cheers rasta

[compostverte]

You spent £1200 equivalent on a 300 watt lamp that might give you the same yield as a £100 lamp but pay for itself in electricity and lamp costs ?

In the UK if your "twice as effective" claim were true, that would save £50 electricity per grow plus, say, £15 per grow in lamp replacements so 1000 / 65 = 15 grows.

Let's hope the claims about lumen maintenance are accurate because that's 1800 hours x 15 grows = 27,000 hours in a fairly warm environment.

-------------

I suppose it depends how much you routinely spend on cannabis. Personally I never indulged before I grew and it works out at £100 per grow, £10 or so per ounce and proper ventilation could improve that by 50 to 100 percent

And I fully intend to as doubling my electricity consumption for the 4 month run is painful - cost-wise it's maybe 15 bottles or 4 months' supply of wine and even with my poor yield one grow should last me a year.

And as an environmentalist, using the equivalent of a bathful of hot water for every gramme produced is horrific - but we have no choice and if I had the space, I could at least reclaim some of the heat ...

Edited February 15, 2012 by compostverte