Build A Contactor/relay

[Laphroaig]

you don't need another circut

once the thermostat goes below the setpoint after the lights turn off, it turns the timer on. the timer times out then turns the lights on, no need for a separate circuit or another relay....

I agree totally. Just found what I think is a suitable one On Delay Timing Relay 24 - 240 Vac. The wiring diagram on the pdf gave me pause. A1 and A2 I got but I am struggling to understand the rest of them.

The only issue for me this way is every morning when the 24 hour timer turns the lights on I will have to wait for the timer delay relay to kick in. I could of course just set the clock to come on two hours earlier or whatever I've set the delay to but that isn't a very tidy solution as ideally I'd like to run a second contactor off the same clock which wouldn't have the thermostat involved.

I think I need to power the delay timer in the relay independently of the current travelling through A1 and A2 or if that is not possible create another circuit.

[scraglor]

you can use a couple of relays to get round that problem. don't have time at the mo, but will sort out a circuit diag when i've got time, maybe tomorrow night

[scraglor]

although, just setting the clock the setting time i would see as a perfectly acceptable solution if it was an industrial process, the on delay timer will be an accurate unit of time (although depending on the timer, the dials may not be that precise)so your lights will come on and off at the same time each day

[Laphroaig]

Thankyou again

Still wrestling with that drawing program so I hope you follow what I'm about to outline.

Have attached diagrams so contacts are clearer.

Have learnt a little more about the On Delay Relay, hopefully this idea will fly.

Essentially we swap the On Delay Relay around and put it in it's own circuit switched by the NO output of the thermostat.

Run wire from the NO output of the Thermostat to A1 on the Double Pole Relay and from A2 to the supply Neutral. To create the circuit that activates the timing delay whilst the thermostat is above the set value.

Run wire from live supply to Common terminal of DP Relay and then from NC on the DP relay to A1 on the On Delay Relay and from A2 back to Neutral supply. Providing constant power except when the thermostat opens the DP relay.

Connect the NC terminal of the thermostat to 15 (COM) on the On Delay Relay, and 16 (NC) on the on delay relay to A1 on the 40 Amp Contactor. A2 goes to the neutral supply.

Hope this is intelligible. Will try to make a picture.

Oh by the way just got my 24 Hour Timer it's a new Timeguard Panelmaster E11 for £7.50 inc. p+p

Looking at a Schneider 15956 16a D/P (1 NO+1 NC) Contactor 230v Coil also off eBay for my DP Relay. Bit pricey tho at around £20, wonder if there's a better choice.

The On Delay Relay looks like it will have to come from RS Components, Schneider On Delay Timing Relay RE11 RA MU 24 - 240 Vac at just over £20

Have one Schneider 15968 40a 4 pole Contactor.

Gah diagram is wrong! Have switch going the wrong way on the On Delay Relay, NO should be labeled NC and vice versa.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Laphroaig

[scraglor]

get an 'on pulse timer' instead of on delay and do this circuit...

an on pulse timer immediately energises it's relay when it recieves power, times out then de-energises the relay

job done

Edited November 27, 2011 by scraglor

[Laphroaig]

I am dense but I've been staring at this diagram and I can't see it. I'm new to "On-Pulse" but it sounds as if I would be setting the duration the lights were on not off and irrespective of my misunderstanding that part there's the old nugget of the initial lights on delay where the 24 hour timer breaks the supply to the relay and initiates the delay. As far as I can see the 24 hour timer still stops current from getting to the delay timer after the 24 hour timer as turned off the lights.

My current issue is trying to find out if I understand the relay functionality or rather understanding as opposed to guessing! I've attached the Product Data Sheet. Wiring diagrams are on the last page.

delay relay.pdf

Okay here's where guesswork has got me sofar. A1 & A2 Control the operation of the relay, when current is switched off they open. When current is restored timing is activated and the relay closes after the user defined delay has elapsed, completing the circuit.

15 is the common or live input that switches current between two poles, one normally closed (16) the other normally open (18). When the connections A1 and A2 are powered and the delay timer is not active terminal 15 connects to terminal 16 the normally closed terminal. When the terminals A1 and A2 have power but the delay timer is active terminal 15 then connects to 18 the normally open terminal.

As to the function of Y1, this is well shaky guesswork mind-you, I think it's closed for the duration of the delay between current coming back on and the relay closing when the delay runs out this opens as the relay closes. Normally open like terminal 18 but in the same circuit as A1 and A2. Simply because I cannot see the logic of it and the weird nomenclature working in any other way.

Hopefully I've got it, if I have here's another diagram.

Stat Light Control.pdf

... have a nice feeling about this one. I require your blessing to proceed

[scraglor]

no time to read your whole post... the circuit is simple. your 24hr timer turns on power to your lighting contactor, and is wired through the normally closed terminal of the on pulse timer.... which of course is closed so the lights come on as soon as the 24hr timer turns on

if the temperature reaches above your setpoint, the thermostat applies power to the on pulse time which then opens the nc contact removing power from the lighting contactor, until it times out and reapplies power to the lighting contactor

piece of piss circuit, no on delays etc, you'll have a nightmare using on delay timers, just search for an on pulse timer and wire it as shown and you're laughing

[scraglor]

that pdf is for an on delay timer... thats a different sort of timer, you will need a latching circuit and a fiddly overly complicated circuit to make it work with a couple of extra relays. use the on pulse timer as i've shown and the circuit is about as basic as it can possibly be

[Laphroaig]

Thankyou so much it all makes sense now

[Laphroaig]

Just to make sure I have it ... this should be the same as yours!

Hope it looks right anyway.

How many 600w lamps can a 40a 4P contactor switch? I had originally only designed this to run 2x, 4-gang sockets with each pair of terminals from the 40 amp Lighting Contactor feeding separate blocks of 4 sockets. However I'm one socket short that way and as far as I can tell there isn't a 5-gang socket on the market, there is however a 6. But I don't want to make something that is potentially dangerous and possible to overload, I'll never use a full 2x6 600W lamps but the question is could it handle it?

I'm also thinking about putting an RCBO in, what should I be looking for, 30mA or lower and rated 40amp same as the contactor?

Thank you again for showing me the light

[Laphroaig]

Forget the 6 gang sockets 4 is quite enough load on the cable.

[scraglor]

you could have 20 sockets and still not overload the cable... that's what fuses/mcb's are for

your drawings for the control circuit are correct, draw up what your thoughts are for the power circuit

Edited November 29, 2011 by scraglor

[scraglor]

http://www.global-download.schneider-electric.com/852575770039EC5E/all/62F245BBF23B728985257643006417CD/$File/se_6472_9.pdf

they don't actually list the loading conditions for 600w lamps, as they aren't actually that common in industry (which is silly really as they're the most efficient)

but to be on the safe side, each set of two poles is good for 6 x 600w (switching live and neutral)

[Laphroaig]

Here we go. .... well ... erm ... possibly. Have added a second Contactor to run just off the 24 hour timer for maximum flexibility. Was going to start getting DIN rail mounted terminal blocks and suchlike but came across these 5 way 60 Amp double pole terminal blocks and figured I could make that do. Will need to double up on one pair of terminals for the control circuit, other than that i think it's pretty straight forward.

[scraglor]

looks fine to me, you're going for the on delay route then? this will mean there's a dleay before the timer circuit switches the second bank of lights.

tbh you're switching quite a lot of lights anyway, so should have a delay between switching them all on.... i'd keep the on delay, for just a small delay between lighting banks when they first start up, then get an on pulse timer to control the delay after the thermostat switches

Edited December 3, 2011 by scraglor