Atheist, Agnostic, Believer ?

[Father McPot]

Fuck all that, I'm an individual. I don't follow any book, I don't listen to any sermons, I don't give money or pray to anyone in return to gain "forgivness" or "purity" - these ideas are quite frankly laughable.

I take in knowledge and make my own conclusions as I go along.

edit: spot on, Lizard.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Father McPot

[Guest Gert Lush]

Nevertheless, as Boojum stated when he started off, this is not about religion-bashing, that's too easy anyway.

The question in my mind is this, when you forget all the BS about a grey old beardie-wierdy in the sky that made us all:-

"Is there any kind of "Higher" informing purpose, whether you call it "Power of Good", "Love" or whatever, which underpins things like our sense of morality or our motivation to be good to others?"

If there isn't, is it all just based on a reductionist, utilitarian outlook, in other words, there's no such thing as "good", and "good" is ultimately only what's "good" for the whole - obviously as determined by those sly enough to gain political power.

I don't know if I'd call it "theism", necessarily, but I find it very difficult to see how an autonomous individual, living according to his concience can be explained, unless that "conscience" has a link to something higher, whichever way you may understand that.

Because if a person's conscience is "just chemicals" as the reductionists would have it, then there's no free will is there?

So perhaps "free will" has something to do with the idea of deity?

[Militant]

Good pause for thought here!!

I don't believe anyone can be truly an athiest, when the moment truly comes, like when shit hits the fan, we all say a little prayer.

To be agnostic is ok i feel, as ignorance is truly bliss. I guess there are some things just not worth knowing.

As the saying goes "If God does not exist, now would be a good time to invent him".

[Lizard]

there is no higher purpose to a random series of events, this is the point where the human race gets it all so badly wrong, we are just the product of a random series of events - looking for meaning where there is none , deal with that and your life will be so much more rewarding because you'll be able to see it for what it really is - a short sweet accident every moment of which should be savoured.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Lizard

[jdiesl]

my approach to religion is a bit logical (if there is such an approach)

here is the short virsion:

if you have faith and there is a God then its all good.

if you have faith and there is not God then what the hell is the difference.

so a little faith never hurt anyone its the religious zealots that cause real problems

[Guest scarface]

Good pause for thought here!!

I don't believe anyone can be truly an athiest, when the moment truly comes, like when shit hits the fan, we all say a little prayer.

i heard that too, something like 99.9% of us, religious or not, say a prayer to god before we die, and i suppose it kind of makes sense, just in case like

Edited May 3, 2007 by scarface

[Arnold Layne]

I confess - I am a professional religious person. But I don't think I'm soft in the head, moronic or any of the other charming epiphets posted above Mind you, as a priest I'm well used to tirades of anti-religious sentiment! As it happens though, I think my "faith" is very different from what most of you appear to think contemporary religious/christian faith is.

So perhaps "free will" has something to do with the idea of deity?

The doctrine of "Free will" is by and large regarded as heretical in most (but not all) serious Christian circles. The Protestants certainly didn't like it! Both Luther and Calvin wrote hefty tomes defining the Protestant position which is pretty much in accord with the teaching of Augustine (Bishop of Hippo, not the Roman Catholic missionary sent to Britain to tame the English church). On the other hand, Wesley and his followers embraced Arminianism which does indeed peach "free will".

Presonally, I don't find the term useful at all. We are not free, we are bound by our human nature and all its limitations. Our choices aren't "free", they're "human", determined by our nature. But then again, I am very much aware that my views are largely largely stained with calvinism.

As a point of interest, Protestantism should encourage free individual enquiry. After all, a central tenet of the Reformers was the duty of private judgement.

Moving away from the soapbox, I feel a rant coming on........

Edited May 3, 2007 by Arnold Layne

[delta-green]

for a long time now i've thought of myself as an atheist, not believing in any gods or afterlife, i also believe that organised religions are a form of pyramid scheme with the fat popes and ayatollahs at the top cotrolling hordes of brainwashed followers beneath them who supply them with money and even footsoldiers should the need arise.

as a child i had a very strong belief that god [not christ] was a real entity. then, as i grew older i saw what a total shit hole this world is and it sickened me, all of the murders, rapes, injustice and lack of equallity. i lost all faith, i lost everything. i had a breakdown which left me empty and alone, i wanted to die. god never helped me through this, all i see around me is corruption, greed, abuse and slaughter. but then i see people who get a lot of comfort and strength from their faith and it makes me wonder, what if there is something beyond this world that we cannot explain or understand? if so i want some. i. unlike them need proof, if god was to appear tomorrow, judgement day if you like, i would be shocked but happy that things would be sorted out and everything made right. even if there was a god i dont think he would be fit to judge humanity, would you let a neglectfull parent take charge of his remaining children when he has left his others to suffer, starve and die. not me.

so what am i left with? no god, no afterlife, no hope, no faith in humanity. yet still there is a nagging voice in the deepest part of my brain saying 'what if?' what if im wrong?, what if they are right?. what if this reallity really is just a form of existance and when we die we pass on to another? all i need is proof, simple faith is not enough but keeping an open mind is the only way to live.

[Father McPot]

I don't believe anyone can be truly an athiest

Richard Dawkins will be at your door soon with a weapon of some sort at hand...

[kilgore trout]

arnold, i thought that free will was a central tenet of the christian faith. without it, the idea that we are here to choose to worship god, or not, is rediculous.

anyhows, i like the idea that searching for meanings through the intelect can never satisfy and only direct experience of reality works, which is central to buddhism, but as to wether there is a god or a higher meaning, i dont know, but when i live in the moment, if ever i do,, such questions are irrelevent, and im happy just to exist

[eski]

I am Agnostic as I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of - Clarence Darrow said and I like.

However, I like the ending of the Count of Monter Cristo:

Live then, and be happy, beloved children of my heart, and never forget that the day God deigns to reveal the future of man, the sum of all human wisdom will be contained in these two words: Wait and hope.

I can't relate to people who have blinding faith or those who are total cynics.

[Hir]

That's what I used to think. But where does love come into the equation ? (yeah, I know it's chemicals, but is it just chemicals ?). Where does art come from

You've picked a 64,000 dollar question here. Your beliefs fall largly into what sociology/philosophy calls determinism. A very powerful arguement difficult to break down. However even here there is the acknowledgement that love and caring and doing good fill no deterministic remit cannot be denied. In other words in the deterministic world picture it has to be admitted these things exist but they have no survival function. An animal, entity, is no better of personally for exhibiting these things so why do they exist?

I bounce around particularly when sever MD as I'll now describe my pre accident condition, and its no wonder is it. As you say mania makes you see meaning in everything and then depression makes you see the pointlessness in everything. So no wonder that it terms of belief MDs are fickle. This fickle nature once it has happened a few times knocks the certainty that we see people invest in formal organized religion, for six, and that is no bad thing. As you say organized religion is almost in it's entirity the evil that it claims to be the light against.

Edited May 3, 2007 by Hir

[Arnold Layne]

arnold, i thought that free will was a central tenet of the christian faith

Not in Reformed (and many other kinds of) Christianity it aint, and even the New Testament seems rather hostile to the notion.

[ninorc]

there is no higher purpose to a random series of events, this is the point where the human race gets it all so badly wrong, we are just the product of a random series of events - looking for meaning where there is none , deal with that and your life will be so much more rewarding because you'll be able to see it for what it really is - a short sweet accident every moment of which should be savoured.

My understanding is the opposite of that. The universe is a perfectly ordered system in which there are no accidents and everything happens for a reason. Note I say, 'understanding' rather than belief because I don't subscribe to any theology but have drawn my conclusions from esoteric study and deepen that understanding through experience and the practice of meditation. That's what I would advise for you, too, Boojum: sit down, shut up, follow your breath. It really is that simple and that hard. I'm sure there's plenty of Buddhists around Brighton - it wouldn't be so right on if there weren't, eh? - and you can quite easily find someone to teach you to meditate without signing up to any irrational creed.

[Guest zigzagzoot]

Not sure what to believe really. But I have always thought that religion is just a way of keeping you on the straight and narrow. I mean like when people who have lost their way got into trouble, commited crimes then at the end of it all they say I have found God!! Dont think they have found God just think that the bible is laying the footprint of how ya should live ya life!! And if ya stick to it ya wont go far wrong!! But to me its like people are scared to even live life on there own so they need the bible or whatever depending on faith to give them a path to follow. I personally believe I'd prefer to find my own path!!

But maybe im just ignorant!

Edited May 3, 2007 by zigzagzoot