Grow genius mono silica

[zen-ken]

On 12/10/2022 at 4:24 PM, DreamCatcher said:

Ill be stopping Si in flower as it gives no benefit other than heavier plant matter (not resin).

Can you back this up at all and how this works in soil or river water ? (ie it wouldn't )

Bugbee doesn't cut the silicon and he is well aware we are growing for the THC/CBD content.

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by zen-ken
needs further discussion

[zen-ken]

On 12/10/2022 at 2:42 PM, DeltaMelter said:

@zen-ken Do you quit using it during flower at any point? I've always been a bit unsure as to when to (if at all) quit using it...

 

I use it till you cant....Ie the heads get to budlet stage and you cant spray anymore for fear of causing rot.

I cant use it at directed rates in the system as it turns into a bubble bath   but I hand feed till the end.

[badbillybob]

i also stop putting silicone in after week 4/5 bloom, i dont see any real benefit after this point....... but im no scientist, so f*ck knows

[zen-ken]

Just now, badbillybob said:

i also stop putting silicone in after week 4/5 bloom, i dont see any real benefit after this point....... but im no scientist, so f*ck knows

If using a potassium silicate then the reason (I would suggest) would be the time it takes for the plant to use it....By week 4 its pointless as it wont have time before you yank it.

 

[badbillybob]

 

yes Ken it was potassium silicate. i just didnt notice any sustained improvement after this time, and as it was more used to thicken the stem cell walls.

 i didnt see any point as most in continueing using it, because of the plants development, growth wise was pretty much done by week 4/5.

i also didnt notice the plant being any bushier than when i didnt use it, and to be honest ive done grows without it and not noticed much , if any difference, but as you know, am as cynical as they come.....

[DreamCatcher]

23 hours ago, zen-ken said:

Can you back this up at all

The site i got this information from is currently down for maintenance, i am consulting the threads in there very often so i will ping you again when its back up and running.
They are written with references to the respective studies the information was taken from so you can literally surf through the references if you want specifics.

Until then, i am applying logic.
Silicon helps strengthen the cell walls of the stems, helping with better uptake of nutrient solution (bigger osmotic surface)
Silicon applications through the roots strengthen, the roots and the stems, applications through foliar feeding make leaves darker, wider and able to absorb more light - bigger photosynthetic potential.
In other words, silicon gives mass, plant matter, makes stems/leaves/buds harder, not full of resin harder, not ripe harder, just plant matter denser. Buds that require an industrial grinder to grind through, i've had loads of them in the past (before i started growing). I understand the need to overfeed silicon in hemp, for making more plant matter to make fabrics etc but not on drug type chemovars.

There are other factors that determine the potency of the flowers and silicon is not it. Very good for veg, and for minor pH adjustments. I would use it until the first (second at a stretch) week of flower to develop good strong branching that will hold my buds up without yoyos, flat leaves for higher photosynthesis - better solution absorption. But i can logically see no benefit in increasing plant mass density, what for? to trick small time dealers to buying less for more? its me who will be smoking it in the end. I dunno, I might be completely off course here. Ill wait for the site to come off maintenance as i am consulting the references in there quite often and link it here (if its allowed anyway).
 

Edited October 16, 2022 by DreamCatcher

[zen-ken]

@DreamCatcher I am absolutely fascinated and confused by Silicon science in equal measure  

 

Just when I think I have my head round it I get a curve ball like this

 

University of California professor Emanuel Epstein—I think was the first—to observe that plants produce strong trichomes when you give silicon. Plants transport silicon given to the roots, from roots to trichomes and solidify that silicon in and around trichomes, to make their trichomes strong and tough. Without silicon, trichomes tend to be smooth and weak. Since Epstein’s observation, more and more researchers observed and described the effects of silicon as: plants given silicon produce more trichomes, high density trichomes, longer trichomes, rigid trichomes, pronounced trichomes, distinct trichomes, strongly developed trichomes, etc.—overall just better trichomes.

MY: So, would these silicon-solidified trichomes actually yield more medical compounds?

SR: Indeed, Brazilian researchers found out just that in the Artemisia plant. Artemisia is like a sister plant to cannabis, in the sense that Artemisia also produces a chemical compound artemisinin in its trichomes. Artemisinin is used to treat malaria. The researchers found that when you give silicon, trichomes are bigger plus all the trichomes remained intact, thus yielding more artemisinin compound. Without silicon, trichomes shrivel, collapse, rupture open, yielding less of the compound.

 

https://www.maximumyield.com/hashing-out-the-effects-of-silicon-on-cannabis/2/18415

 

(conflict of interest warning - Dr. Shiv Reddy—who holds a patent on silicon embedded growing media)

Edited October 16, 2022 by zen-ken

[DreamCatcher]

@zen-ken That is interesting!
So in addition to making stronger cells/stems and flatter leaves, it also strengthens the trichome "stem", if you like, which would in turn secrete more resin into the little blob at the end, simply by having a thicker/denser pathway.
Back to researching it is  

I got questions now.. Would the same be achieved by adding trace amounts of silicon?
I am coming from the theory of balance, and that at some point something can be too much. In regards to the most mobile nutrients (npk), you can see when the plant has taken up too much when the leaves start getting affected. Could the "symptom" of using too much silicon be unrecognisable to the naked eye? 
Considering that silicon is an essential nutrient, that does what we said above, could too much of it add unnecessary weight to the buds? could the extra weight observed be a symptom of over fertilisation of silica? a symptom that wouldn't necessarily be a problem with say, hemp, or other plants that are grown for their density (not essential oils) like straw for horses etc.(?)

What i am saying is, if such effects are observed and documented separately in different studies, could one deduce from the overall information that silicon CAN and SHOULD be used, but only to ever so slightly increase density until it is optimal for the variety we are growing. Enough to thicken out certain parts for better mobility of the elements inside the plant.
That value, unless tests are done, will be very elusive, as commercial growers WANT to sell less for more, the use of potassium silicate (or even a more plant available form of silicon) can be effectively translated to more plant matter (heavier buds) with no real impact on essential oil production (because business is business unfortunately).

Not sure how the companies that sell the stuff take advantage of this fact. Especially the ones that make the more expensive stuff they claim to be more plant available (ortho/monosilicic acids).

Edited October 16, 2022 by DreamCatcher

[zen-ken]

Just now, DreamCatcher said:

Not sure how the companies that sell the stuff take advantage of this fact. Especially the ones that make the more expensive stuff they claim to be more plant available (orto/monosilicic acids).

 

They don't....they don't even get you to sensibly factor in the extra K if using potassium silicate.....I had to use hydro buddy to work that out and its an unacceptable amount when using Athena pro (which is so K heavy already its frightening)

 

I have a ppm that Dr Bugbee/Dr Fernandez use in their lab in DWC.....in the NASA funded quest to find the minimum 'use' of all elements I think he is my best guide atm 

 

 

 

[DreamCatcher]

Just now, zen-ken said:

Dr Bugbee

If you're talking about Dr. Bruce Bugbee, ive got his "Nutrient management in recirculating hydroponic cultures" study printed and keep referring to it every now and then as it got so much information it could very well be a guide book..

I have Hydrobuddy but i am too incompetent to use it yet. Need a bit more XP to use that as ive only grown twice before, with this being the third run. I hyper fixated on studying all of this very early, and most of it was incomprehensible for me 2 years ago, but im slowly making my way to understanding more and more.
 

[zen-ken]

@DreamCatcher he did two courses I should have sprung for tbf....I wanted to be a Dr of cannabis  

The second course was a lot more advanced as I understand....I sent him some mail.....I expected a sectary to answer.

No....he did  I think I sent it to the wrong place. 

 

 

Hydrobuddy is a bit of a pain to use as most of the crap we get in bottles doesn't resemble whats on the label. (guaranteed minimum is such bullshit - so any max is ok?) 

We use different measurements etc....but stick with it....its a great resource imho and you will see how easy it is once you get around the chemistry language.

 

(Its also all well and good giving a fantastic recipe to make stabilised mono for pence - but it requires hydrochloric acid at <90%  not something I can get tbf  - Just a joke. I very much appreciated Daniel taking his time to answer my questions recently on sterilisation)

 

 

I will give you the advice given to me in the 90's if you are only on your third run (I should really listen to it myself )- get the environment spot on....fixate on that before approaching anything else 

[DreamCatcher]

28 minutes ago, zen-ken said:

but it requires hydrochloric acid at <90%

Sulfuric works just as well, add in a bit of sorbitol for stability and use within 5 months. Check it out here <3. Sulfuric acid should be much more accessible given its use in car batteries, should be able to get some from a petrol station (?)
Im like you, only with undiagnosed adhd, (i show a lot of traits my wife has) Im off to search for the courses, thank you!

Also, yes, as much as i think i've got it dialed in, VPD, temps, rh, pH and EC, there's always going to be something to improve, even if at this point is for minimum result..

Edit, sorry i just re-re-re-read your post, im baked AF xD 

Edited October 16, 2022 by DreamCatcher

[zen-ken]

22 minutes ago, DreamCatcher said:

Sulfuric works just as well, add in a bit of sorbitol for stability and use within 5 months. Check it out here <3. Sulfuric acid should be much more accessible given its use in car batteries, should be able to get some from a petrol station (?)
Im like you, only with undiagnosed adhd, (i show a lot of traits my wife has) Im off to search for the courses, thank you!

Also, yes, as much as i think i've got it dialed in, VPD, temps, rh, pH and EC, there's always going to be something to improve, even if at this point is for minimum result..

Edit, sorry i just re-re-re-read your post, im baked AF xD 

 90% is impossible to get without a licence in the UK....believe me...I tried  ....with out a 'valid reason' getting anything over 50% is very difficult.

I wanted the sulphuric as a PH down alternative...Now Im just gonna use Nitric.  

[DreamCatcher]

1 hour ago, zen-ken said:

getting anything over 50% is very difficult

What happens if you simmer 2L of 50% Sulfuric acid for a few minutes until it is reduced to 1.1L? would excess water evaporate to leave you with a more concentrated mix?
Would need a magnetic stirrer/heat plate and good ventilation  + appropriate PPE (goggles or glasses with splash guard, butyl gloves and an apron) how much free time have you got xD  

I considered using Orthosilicic acid to adjust my pH down as well, but the product i used didn't do a good enough job - had to use too much of it + smells cheesy and disgusting, unbearable to work with.. (might be a gone off bottle) still cant bring myself to chuck it as it was a bit expensive... The product was "Intense Nutrients Silicon Ultra" got it on sale..

Edited October 16, 2022 by DreamCatcher

[zen-ken]

8 minutes ago, DreamCatcher said:

What happens if you simmer 2L of 50% Sulfuric acid for a few minutes until it is reduced to 1.1L? would excess water evaporate to leave you with a more concentrated mix?
Would need a magnetic stirrer/heat plate and good ventilation  + appropriate PPE (goggles or glasses with splash guard, butyl gloves and an apron) how much free time have you got xD  
Yes....but I aint doing it on the hob 
I considered using Orthosilicic acid to adjust my pH down as well, but the product i used didn't do a good enough job - had to use too much of it + smells cheesy and disgusting, unbearable to work with.. (might be a gone off bottle) still cant bring myself to chuck it as it was a bit expensive... The product was "Intense Nutrients Silicon Ultra" got it on sale..

Ask @Intense Nutrients Matt if thats right if hes still about....potassium silicate works as a PH up but I wouldnt overdose these Orthosilicic products.....look at dune......you apply it once a week....same as GG