Do you know which god you worship?

[distracted]

OK, my pondering is wrong maybe although the 2nd last could be a restoration artifact

[Hughie Green]

Indeed, the stained glass artists of antiquity may well have been into shrooms themselves and were having a laugh at the churchs expense,

it must be noted though that these images are from other people after the book itself was published, Allegro does suggest a mushroom cult was part of early Christianity based on Eastern fertility cults but that knowledge has been lost along the way.

[distracted]

it's an interesting theory

[Boojum]

My only question about the New Testament having anything to do with Amanita Muscaria is wondering whether Amanita Muscaria actually grew in the regions where the New Testament originated from at that time (if, indeed, it grows there now). It mostly grows in temperate regions, not desert climates. E2A I'm sure there are plant/fungus hallucinogens that do grow there, I just don't think Amanita Muscaria is one of them.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Boojum

[Boojum]

My take on Christianity and hallucinogens (and I think Terence McKenna touched on this in Food of the Gods) is rather than being based on hallucinogens, the early Christian church was trying to replace the earlier European religions (that were based on the sacramental use of hallucinogens), which is where the ritual of bread and wine comes in - people were used to a sacrament, one with actual revelatory powers (or at least hallucinogenic ones), Christianity kept the idea of a sacrament but replaced revelation with ritual.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Boojum

[Hughie Green]

My only question about the New Testament having anything to do with Amanita Muscaria is wondering whether Amanita Muscaria actually grew in the regions where the New Testament originated from at that time (if, indeed, it grows there now). It mostly grows in temperate regions, not desert climates. E2A I'm sure there are plant/fungus hallucinogens that do grow there, I just don't think Amanita Muscaria is one of them.

Could be that that particular mushroom is confused with the Fly Agaric which is the common European mushroom, all of the images are

from European churches I think so they used a stylized version of a mushroom people would recognise as well as its folk lore pagan associations, the mushroom cult Allegro speaks of is based in Eastern fertility cults so what mushrooms were used or venerated there

is a mystery, perhaps it was only the symbolism that traveled rather than the use of mushrooms though given that they are potent dry

as well as fresh, movement of mushrooms through trade routes from the East alongside other drugs is not beyond the realms of possibility.

[Cambium]

which is the oldest?

I think currently, its thought to be some sort of sea grass in the med. Over 100,000yrs old. Pando isn't far off that either. These are clonal though, rather than individual organisms. I think thats a toss up between a pine in sweeden or one of the bristlecones in the white mountains.

My only question about the New Testament having anything to do with Amanita Muscaria is wondering whether Amanita Muscaria actually grew in the regions where the New Testament originated from at that time (if, indeed, it grows there now). It mostly grows in temperate regions, not desert climates. E2A I'm sure there are plant/fungus hallucinogens that do grow there, I just don't think Amanita Muscaria is one of them.

It is a temperate climate species. It wouldn't have been naturally found in the region. It is basically the weed of the ecto mycorrhizal world though and it takes very little effort to get it to establish and naturalise, given the right conditions. Take into account that the region would have been heavily forested, and the climate very different (the dust bowl we see today, even the Sahara to an extent, are man made), it's likely that on a micro climate scale there was suitable habitat for spores to germinate and assosiations to be made. Considered against the likely trade and travel to temperate regions, and the fact that spores can travel on clothing, dried mushrooms, etc, for thousands of miles and lay dormant for hundreds of years, I'd say its possible that they were once fruiting in the region.

What really fascinates me though are the hallucinogenic species from the region that have been lost. As I said^^ it never used to be a dust bowl, it was once a fertile crescent and who knows what was present then and what is lost now. The tassili mushroom man is interesting as for all I can see he is outlined with our lovely liberty caps, reality is that this is unlikely given the climate of the region. There are other psilocybe that fit the bill like hoogshagenii, but again they prefer it tropical. If not those, then what? Fascinating.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Cambium

[Cambium]

A lot of the medieval trees looking like mushrooms is due to stain glass depictions being repeated and reinforced on illustrations I'd say

Maybe they understood more about the mycorrhizal relationship that in particular, muscaria has with trees. They are literally at one with each other, each struggling to survive or thrive without the other. It certainly is wide open for interpretation though.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Cambium

[Ital]

So really we all started with El then humans being heir naughty selves spilt into groups and created faith more suitable to their way of life, bringing us up to the modern day with Scientology, Rastafari and Sun Myung Moon.

Are you certain those mushrooms aren't aliens, didn't the christians suffer abductions as well?

Edited November 1, 2014 by Ital

[Cambium]

@@Ital there is a school of thought that thinks fungi are/were panspermic.

[MD84]

well as a muslim i believe all the three monotheistic religions came from the same one god. but the message in judaism became distorted with men changing the scripture. and then the same thing with christianity. i'd be a jew had it not been changed or maybe a christian if that message was the same today as it was when it was revealed to isa (pbuh). but islam was given to us and protected so that the quran remained the same as when it was first revealed to us. so i really would expect some of the same prophets to be mentioned.

[Cambium]

well as a muslim i believe all the three monotheistic religions came from the same one god. but the message in judaism became distorted with men changing the scripture. and then the same thing with christianity. i'd be a jew had it not been changed or maybe a christian if that message was the same today as it was when it was revealed to isa (pbuh). but islam was given to us and protected so that the quran remained the same as when it was first revealed to us. so i really would expect some of the same prophets to be mentioned.

Do you think it has been protected from ill informed translators, human fallibility, Chinese whispers. I would say that its a fair leap of faith to think that its remained unchanged from when it was first 'revealed'.

[MD84]

Do you think it has been protected from ill informed translators, human fallibility, Chinese whispers. I would say that its a fair leap of faith to think that its remained unchanged from when it was first 'revealed'.

well as muslims we know. we can compare the oldest known qurans to those of today and the arabic will always be the same. the interpretation and translation is another matter. that's why muslims are encouraged to learn arabic to enable one to read the pure message for yourself in the language it was given.

http://islam.about.com/od/quran/a/Compilation-Of-The-Quran.htm

Edited November 1, 2014 by MD84

[Cambium]

@@MD84 I'm curious as to how old the oldest known books are.

[MD84]

@@MD84 I'm curious as to how old the oldest known books are.

cambium

http://www.bible-quran.com/oldest-quran-tashkent-sana/