cannabis hypocrisy protest

[JimmyPage]

Now I really don't want to get involved in the shitfest which inevitably happens when certain people are mentioned. However, there is a long and infamous tradition in all activist circles of people manipulating others to do their dirty work by feeding them misinformation and preying on their ignorance and good nature. Look at the US civil rights movements for examples where "activists"* persuaded people to break the law, get locked up so as to "draw attention" to their cause. As I said before, I would hate for anyone on UK420 to be so duped, and am trying my best to ensure no one is.

*cunts actually.

[Jiffa]

that actually doesnt say dutch cant it says uk citizens cant

However the spokesman later confirmed that emails containing incorrect advice had been sent. He suggested that the error was due to a misinterpretation by department officials of a 15-year-old piece of European law known as the Schengen agreement.

Clause 75 of the agreement regulates travel within the EU with prescribed controlled drugs. However it only permits people who are officially resident in countries where the drug being carried is legal to move between countries while in possession of it. Conditions also apply meaning individuals must have the appropriate permits and a doctor's prescription from the relevant country. This means British residents cannot travel to the UK in possession of medicinal cannabis even if they managed to acquire a prescription in a country where it is legal.

The chief executive of Release, Sebastian Saville, said it was a pity the clause did not apply to UK residents. "What is more worrying though is how Home Office advice could have led to people being prosecuted and potentially imprisoned," he said.

from the article linked

[Joolz]

Oh, look what I found:

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/oct/29/home-office-import-medicinal-cannabis

Clause 75 of the agreement regulates travel within the EU with prescribed controlled drugs. However it only permits people who are officially resident in countries where the drug being carried is legal to move between countries while in possession of it. Conditions also apply meaning individuals must have the appropriate permits and a doctor's prescription from the relevant country. This means British residents cannot travel to the UK in possession of medicinal cannabis even if they managed to acquire a prescription in a country where it is legal.

that would seem to suggest that a Dutch or Belgian national with a legal prescription for cannabis in their resident country can travel to other countries within the EU and legaly take their medication with them so long as they get the correct permits issued in their country of residence first

It also clearly says that this does not apply to British nationals going to countries where it is legal to obtain a prescription and then bring it back to the UK ?

[JimmyPage]

that would seem to suggest that a Dutch or Belgian national with a legal prescription for cannabis in their resident country can travel to other countries within the EU and legaly take their medication with them so long as they get the correct permits issued in their country of residence first

It also clearly says that this does not apply to British nationals going to countries where it is legal to obtain a prescription and then bring it back to the UK ?

Again, I wouldn't bet my freedom on a letter from the Home Office. Out of curiosity does anyone know what the Dutch government advice to Dutch nationals is ?

Also, the UK would need to be careful since you are not permitted to treat a citizen of one EU country differently to another. That's why they had to be so careful with their rules around benefits. For the purpose of *any* legislation, an EU citizen is an EU citizen. You can't pass (or enforce) a law which says "UK citizen this, while French citizens that". And neither can France.

www. gov. uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/206297/2_JHA_opt-in_webpage_update_-_data_v0_1.pdf

Now in the absence of a *ministerial* statement, this is the closest I can find to the UKs Schengen position. And it doesn't seem to square with the letter quoted above.

Edited October 1, 2013 by JimmyPage

[Joolz]

Again, I wouldn't bet my freedom on a letter from the Home Office. Out of curiosity does anyone know what the Dutch government advice to Dutch nationals is ?

Also, the UK would need to be careful since you are not permitted to treat a citizen of one EU country differently to another. That's why they had to be so careful with their rules around benefits. For the purpose of *any* legislation, an EU citizen is an EU citizen. You can't pass (or enforce) a law which says "UK citizen this, while French citizens that". And neither can France.

Now in the absence of a *ministerial* statement, this is the closest I can find to the UKs Schengen position. And it doesn't seem to square with the letter quoted above.

with respect, if the only *proof* you will accept is a statement on a governbent website saying " Dutch and Belgian people please feel free to bring and use your cannabis prescription whilst visiting the UK" I think you will probably have a long wait

the letter from the home office is pretty clear, as to what is and isn't allowed,the guardian article you posted seems to confirm it, not sure why you wouldn't trust a letter from the home office, at the very least it could be used as part of a defence if a Dutch or Belgian was arrested for bringing their cannabis prescription to the UK and I would imagine the Dutch govs advice would be to get your permits in order before travelling with a legal cannabis prescription, especially when travelling to a backward country like the UK

Edited October 1, 2013 by Joolz

[Arnold Layne]

It looks to me as if at best the situation is unclear. Not good grounds for coming into the UK with a pocket full of Bedrocan, I would have thought?

[Jiffa]

id say those dutch citizen that are entering are doing so on say of their info not because someone on facebook said so

[JimmyPage]

with respect, if the only *proof* you will accept is a statement on a governbent website saying " Dutch and Belgian people please feel free to bring and use your cannabis prescription whilst visiting the UK" I think you will probably have a long wait

the letter from the home office is pretty clear, as to what is and isn't allowed,the guardian article you posted seems to confirm it, not sure why you wouldn't trust a letter from the home office, at the very least it could be used as part of a defence if a Dutch or Belgian was arrested for bringing their cannabis prescription to the UK and I would imagine the Dutch govs advice would be to get your permits in order before travelling with a legal cannabis prescription, especially when travelling to a backward country like the UK

I'm no lawyer, but incorrect advice from the Home Office* would not be a defence, it would be mitigation. It might be actionable in a civil court for damages. But it wouldn't prevent a criminal trial.

Anyway, no more to say, really. I'm sure everyone everywhere is a grown up and can make their own decisions.

*Back in the 80s my Mum did jury service. The case was theft, and a guy had seen a car he assumed abandoned - no tax disc, covered in leaves etc. He approached the police about taking ownership, and they advised "it's a civil matter sir". No fool he, he wrote to them, and their reply was something like "if you write to the DVLC, you can apply for the logbook, which would give you ownership of the car if the original owner cab't be traced". He did this, and after 2 months, the DVLC issued a new logbook for the car.

Of course, the owner did turn up (spent a year working in the US) and wanted his car back. The guy who did it up wanted payment, so the police were called. The guy was arrested, and charged with theft. At the trial, the letter was exhibited, but the judge made it clear it was no defence, and the jury could not acquit on it's basis. My Mum felt very sorry for the defendant - after all he clearly wasn't a "criminal". However the judges summing up was crystal clear, and my Mum had to admit that as the law stood, he was guilty. When it came to sentencing, he was handed the smallest possible fine, and the judge commented that if he had just returned the car (although he would have lost out, having renovated it) then the charge would have been thrown out.

So anyway, waving letters around in a criminal court doesn't seem the best defence strategy IMHO.

[Joolz]

I'm no lawyer, but incorrect advice from the Home Office* would not be a defence, it would be mitigation. It might be actionable in a civil court for damages. But it wouldn't prevent a criminal trial.

as I said in a previous post, if you have concerns then maybe contact NORML UK and ask them to clarify the position

I'm pretty sure they would have looked into this before announcing a protest, at least I hope they have

if he's looking in then maybe @@DrHemp could clarify

Edited October 1, 2013 by Joolz

[Jiffa]

http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=331388&hl=

[MonsterMash]

It looks to me as if at best the situation is unclear. Not good grounds for coming into the UK with a pocket full of Bedrocan, I would have thought?

The UK may not be a member state but it is happy to be bound by certain parts of of the acquis.

Decision 2000/365/EC includes Article 75. It seems the HO Civil Servants reply I quoted earlier is actually spot on

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/free_movement_of_persons_asylum_immigration/l33020_en.htm

The participation of Ireland and the United Kingdom

In accordance with the protocol to the Treaty of Amsterdam, Ireland and the United Kingdom can take part in some or all of the Schengen arrangements, if the Schengen Member States and the government representative of the country in question vote unanimously in favour within the Council.

In March 1999, the United Kingdom asked to cooperate in some aspects of Schengen, namely police and judicial cooperation in criminal matters, the fight against drugs and the SIS. The Council Decision 2000/365/EC approving the request by the United Kingdom was adopted on 29 May 2000.

In June 2000, Ireland too asked to take part in some aspects of Schengen, roughly corresponding to the aspects covered by the United Kingdoms request. The Council adopted the Decision 2002/192/EC approving Irelands request on 28 February 2002. The Commission had issued opinions on the two applications, stressing that the partial participation of these two Member States should not reduce the consistency of the acquis as a whole.

After evaluating the conditions that must precede implementation of the provisions governing police and judicial cooperation, the Council consented with its Decision 2004/926/EC of 22 December 2004 that this part of the Schengen acquis could be implemented by the United Kingdom.

Edited October 1, 2013 by MonsterMash

[Jiffa]

@@blowsterke sorry i should have linked you . this was the discussion that made me post the other thread

[blowsterke]

All people have to have rights to use cannabis as meds.

Nobody should argue about this.

It is actually sad, that somebody else tells you what to do or not to do.

We are no babies.

[soto]

with respect, if the only *proof* you will accept is a statement on a governbent website saying " Dutch and Belgian people please feel free to bring and use your cannabis prescription whilst visiting the UK" I think you will probably have a long wait

the letter from the home office is pretty clear, as to what is and isn't allowed,the guardian article you posted seems to confirm it, not sure why you wouldn't trust a letter from the home office, at the very least it could be used as part of a defence if a Dutch or Belgian was arrested for bringing their cannabis prescription to the UK and I would imagine the Dutch govs advice would be to get your permits in order before travelling with a legal cannabis prescription, especially when travelling to a backward country like the UK

It does beg the question about dual nationality. Any ideas on that one, is it a clear and cut as in the British nationality overrides the other? Perhaps someone with dual nationality of two EU countries could get around this in some way, a little like how people get around our perverse laws on marrying immigrants by ensuring their partner works in another EU country before coming here.

Edited October 1, 2013 by soto

[MonsterMash]

We need clarification

2000/365/EC: Council Decision of 29 May 2000 concerning the request of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to take part in some of the provisions of the Schengen acquis

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000D0365:EN:NOT

Note the inclusion of Schengen Article 75 (which allows movement of prescribed narcotics/phsycotropics across borders) at Article 1 section a(i) of the Council Decision.

For clarification.