Any other practising Christians on here?

[Ishmael]

i think it goes back to Calvin the predestination thing, leads to the doctrine of the elect and it goes like this as I understand it:

1. God knows everything including the future

2. Therefore he knows who's going to heaven and who's not

3. obviously it's gonna be the memebers of the one true church going to heaven

4. therefore it's us

I've always wanted to know whether there's some more complicated version of this with like some sort of humane aspect maybe and one day someone would explain it to me. Arnie's a humane man so could be he's the one to tell me why this isn't deeply objectionable.

[Guest bazzad9]

i think it goes back to Calvin the predestination thing, leads to the doctrine of the elect and it goes like this as I understand it:

1. God knows everything including the future

2. Therefore he knows who's going to heaven and who's not

3. obviously it's gonna be the memebers of the one true church going to heaven

4. therefore it's us

I've always wanted to know whether there's some more complicated version of this with like some sort of humane aspect maybe and one day someone would explain it to me. Arnie's a humane man so could be he's the one to tell me why this isn't deeply objectionable.

if you want to understand religion out side of the organised cults arnold is the man to talk to mate

lot of respect for the fella even if i dont agree with him

[Red-eye Jedi]

Westboro baptists love them some calvinism. I'm head more towards a more inclusionist semi-universalist stance.

[Guest bazzad9]

Westboro baptists love them some calvinism. I'm head more towards a more inclusionist semi-universalist stance.

they love litigation more

[Arnold Layne]

I no longer hold "orthodox" beliefs (despite once having been an evangelical Calvinist), and I no longer attend Church.

oh my lord were you really? Where were you on the predestination, doctrine of the elect malarkey? Do they still go in for all that, Calvinists?

Yes, indeedly!

I have read a lot of Calvin's works, his "Institutio", many of his biblical commentaries and in particular his pamphlet/book "Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God".

I held to supralapsarianism.

Calvinism is alive and well

i think it goes back to Calvin the predestination thing, leads to the doctrine of the elect and it goes like this as I understand it:

1. God knows everything including the future

2. Therefore he knows who's going to heaven and who's not

3. obviously it's gonna be the memebers of the one true church going to heaven

4. therefore it's us

I've always wanted to know whether there's some more complicated version of this with like some sort of humane aspect maybe and one day someone would explain it to me. Arnie's a humane man so could be he's the one to tell me why this isn't deeply objectionable.

The Doctrine of election/predestination is first and foremost a biblical doctrine, as in the book of Exodus, where God elects the children of Israel above all others.

This was refined and re-shaped by St Paul, whose doctrine can be seen in places like Romans 9 and Ephesians 1.

In the post-apostolic era, Augustine picked up the doctrine of election and began to refine it. See "On the Predestination of the Saints". The word "Saint", I feel like adding, is here used in its Biblical sense, to define all those "Sanctified" through faith. Its another term for all "believers" who are collectively address by St Paul (for example) as "The saints of God". The RC notion of papally created saints is neither biblical nor rational.

Ishmael, your concept of predestination is the very opposite of Calvinism, it reads more like Arminianism to me! I'm afraid the doctrine of Predestination/election cannot be dressed up as humane. It is vile, repugnant and belongs to the ancient world.

I find the idea of a Calvinist Baptist amusing (someone mentioned Westboro Baptists). Calvin would have insisted on burning all baptists, since he was a fiery paedo-baptist with no time for dippers and adult baptisers. For Calvin, adult baptism, with its associated "Profession of faith" would have been regarded as Arminian nonsense, the very opposite of the Augustinian system he espoused. Baptism is about God's election, not man's faith - is what he would have said, I guess.

Modern Calvinism is a fine example of what happens when the Biblical texts are treated woodenly, in the flat with no reference to the process of redaction and the development of Scripture/Theology. It is uncritical, and uninformed. Calvin himself one could excuse, living in the days before the enlightenment he could have known no better. But modern Calvinist have no excuse. They squeeze the Bible into their own mould, rather than allowing it to speak for itself, or bothering to ask critical and proper questions of the text and about its production, and the relevance of its message in the modern, scientific world.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Arnold Layne

[PaulHackett]

Calvin sounds like a right cunt!

Cheers Arnie, for the insight

Edited March 6, 2012 by PaulHackett

[troy]

All religion is bullshit anyway . Good luck Christians , it's all bollocks.

[Guest bazzad9]

All religion is bullshit anyway . Good luck Christians , it's all bollocks.

at least you broke it to them gently

dont know if you listen to the beyond beleif podacst from the bbc mate ,this weeks is about atheism you might find it interesting

[Red-eye Jedi]

All religion is bullshit anyway . Good luck Christians , it's all bollocks.

O rly?

[PaulHackett]

That made my day, as Clint would say...

[Twenty Three]

All religion is bullshit anyway . Good luck Christians , it's all bollocks.

Thanks Troy,at least we now know your feelings towards religion as you seem to have been skirting around the issue for years.

[Ishmael]

All religion is bullshit anyway . Good luck Christians , it's all bollocks.

Thanks Troy,at least we now know your feelings towards religion as you seem to have been skirting around the issue for years.

he's always beating round the bush, never gets to the point, I think he's a bit too frightened of upsetting people, stop pussyfooting around troy and spit it out

[iky]

this is what I like to think I am..

http://www.humanism.org.uk/humanism

[troy]

All religion is bullshit anyway . Good luck Christians , it's all bollocks.

at least you broke it to them gently

dont know if you listen to the beyond beleif podacst from the bbc mate ,this weeks is about atheism you might find it interesting

Yes I heard that on radio 4, cheers . I especially liked the woman , I think her name was lois lee. I liked the idea of scientism and the fact that non religious people need to be clear what they do believe in.

Nice one Twenty Three and Ishmael , I love the sweet smell of irony in the afternoon.

Edited March 6, 2012 by troy

[Guest doze]

I have read a lot of Calvin's works, his "Institutio", many of his biblical commentaries and in particular his pamphlet/book "Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God".

I held to supralapsarianism.

Wow!

A) that you were a minister.

B) That I've just seen the word supralapsarianism on a weed forum. This Place is amazing!

I'm an atheist but like posting on US fundamentalist forums, that's how I'm familiar with the term. Agree 100% with you on Calvinism.