HazyDaze Posted June 12, 2023 Share Posted June 12, 2023 Just now, OldFord said: i have got this strain if you fancy that instead I got exactly that, you knows. But I did get very lucky and eventually find the packs I wanted in stock with one retailer when everyone else in the uk/eu is out off them! Well, I'll believe it when and if they arrive tomorrow as they supposed to!! Fingers crossed, I'll be waiting by the mat for them, I'll rip them from the letterbox as the postie posts them. Oh hang on, that might not work, I have to sign for them. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHatDriver Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 3 hours ago, OldFord said: Also the lazy retailers that cant be arsed to update their stock lists , you go through the order process , jump through all the hoops / tick the boxes and then get an email a wk later to say ... sorry its not in stock Ok thats the last of my cash you will see 3 hours ago, HazyDaze said: I got stung twice on the bounce recently by seedwanks that list stuff in stock, but after paying they sent an email the next day or even days later to say they aren't in stock and then ya have to wait to have the money put back which doesn't go back as quick as it leaves the account does it! Yeah that's happen to me a couple of times now too. I'll only shop there now if everyone else is outta stock. If they mess me around I'll just get my money back and move on... Fuck all that, chaps... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHatDriver Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 On 11/06/2023 at 10:57 PM, brock1 said: So if I understand correctly your asking how to maintain a strain after creating the original F1 you like? Let's say you grow your F1 out and find 3 exceptional females at this stage you use these with as many males as possible with similar traits. Say you only find 1 female you for the same again using similar males. From the F2 you repeat each generation only the F2 will have more phenotype that a F1 because of the resesive showing. At this point it can get over whelming pheno hunting so I will share a little tip. Instead of focusing on females if you keep keeper clone from the F1's used just Bx to it with a few males. This will give you a population more like a F4 than F3 breed to be like the original female. Line breeding as many healthy males to female after the F4 generation will keep the line genetically stable in future generations. If you start seeing a increase in weaker plant's at this stage don't throw all these generations of inbreeding away. Hopefully you keeping some F1 or F2 seeds and simply Bx again to add a little vigour back to the inbreed line you have created. Inbreed line's are a lot better for making new crosses vs F1 & F2 Seed's. Pollen can be stored in the fridge for about a year, right? That's long enough to get to F3. So could you say anything F3 onward are technically ILB? I thought it was 5 or 6? Thanks for all this info. Great stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Military Grade Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 (edited) I've only had that happen at the same one seedbank 3 times. My go to two other places have never let me down yet. To add context: I was referring to making an order only to get an email saying it is out of stock, but they still didn't even update the store page after all 3 times 3 different strains. Tho one of the times they did give me a ten pack for the price of a single seed so not all bad Edited June 13, 2023 by Military Grade 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brock1 Posted June 13, 2023 Share Posted June 13, 2023 13 hours ago, PHatDriver said: Pollen can be stored in the fridge for about a year, right? That's long enough to get to F3. So could you say anything F3 onward are technically ILB? I thought it was 5 or 6? Thanks for all this info. Great stuff. No. Technically most seed companies go to F18 for the strain to be a inbreed line and use nearly a 100 plant's each generation. As hobby breeder's this isn't possible & the reason we have advanced breeding techniques today like selfing and Bx. However their dosent seem to be a set generation that a strain becomes a IBL its more to do with how many phenos are present in the generation. For a hobby breeder with lower starting numbers than commercial breeders i would say around F8 will be acceptable stable to be a IBL definitely not F4. A S3 or a Bx4 is considered to be genetically stable enough to be used as a IBL for breeding so a F4 definitely is far short of being acceptable to say its a IBL. F4 IS BANNED FROM ANYONE SAYING ITS A INBREED LINE.They are honestly talking out if they tell you F4 is IBL S3 or Bx4 are cubed and totally Acceptable in hybrids to call IBL when describing a hybrids parents. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHatDriver Posted June 17, 2023 Share Posted June 17, 2023 (edited) @brock1 I've been off reading again... It's never ending :o) You say F18 for IBL - Fuck that! :o) That would take me 20+ years! Even with note taking, I woukd lose track of what I was doing! AA Aa etc - My head hurts! As I said earlier in this thread I'm going to try and STS (S1) for female pollen this run. I understand that the seed will not be identical to mum and dad. Some could be very similar and others way different and be worse off for it, BUT some, could be better than the original stock, right? So I would have to S1 my seed. Then grow the new seed and back them with original dad female pollen TWICE, while looking for the traits that are closes to the original mum to reach S3! Even that sounds undoable round here for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure I'd have the capability to see, smell or otherwise find the traits that the originals have. Mother nature, thout are such a bitch... As I said, I suppose I'll get what I get and will have to make do. At least I'm not pollen chucking, opening a bank and selling seeds like some of the banks out here. So I take it my best bet would be to just make my own F1s as they sound to be less messed up than F2s, that right? So getting to F3 would be close to stable though and similar enough as to not notice the difference without a magnifying glass, if you know what I mean. Ya would really have to know that strain to see what had changed. For me I still think going the S route, rather than F would be easier and I'd be better off, yes? Edited June 17, 2023 by PHatDriver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHatDriver Posted June 17, 2023 Share Posted June 17, 2023 Got more seed today too. So feel a bit better... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Military Grade Posted June 17, 2023 Share Posted June 17, 2023 Silent Seeds branding looks a lot like Dinafem's, sister company? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KC Posted June 17, 2023 Share Posted June 17, 2023 It's their new name I believe 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHatDriver Posted June 18, 2023 Share Posted June 18, 2023 16 hours ago, Military Grade said: Silent Seeds branding looks a lot like Dinafem's, sister company? Was going to say I don't know, as I haven't got any Dinafem Seeds. Looks as though I do now though, kool. Really nice little packing box. Has a big fat tube held in the middle of the box which is sealed. Bullet proof box that I'm overly impressed with. Even a little over kill there, maybe. The tube inside had the seeds dropped in then has what I thought was cotton wool but it's black. On top of that they fill the rest of the tube with desiccant balls . Unbelievable packing. 10 outta 10. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazy L Posted June 18, 2023 Share Posted June 18, 2023 That's good to know about dinafem I thought them packets looked a little familiar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brock1 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 On 17/06/2023 at 6:10 PM, PHatDriver said: @brock1 I've been off reading again... It's never ending :o) You say F18 for IBL - Fuck that! :o) That would take me 20+ years! Even with note taking, I woukd lose track of what I was doing! AA Aa etc - My head hurts! As I said earlier in this thread I'm going to try and STS (S1) for female pollen this run. I understand that the seed will not be identical to mum and dad. Some could be very similar and others way different and be worse off for it, BUT some, could be better than the original stock, right? So I would have to S1 my seed. Then grow the new seed and back them with original dad female pollen TWICE, while looking for the traits that are closes to the original mum to reach S3! Even that sounds undoable round here for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure I'd have the capability to see, smell or otherwise find the traits that the originals have. Mother nature, thout are such a bitch... As I said, I suppose I'll get what I get and will have to make do. At least I'm not pollen chucking, opening a bank and selling seeds like some of the banks out here. So I take it my best bet would be to just make my own F1s as they sound to be less messed up than F2s, that right? So getting to F3 would be close to stable though and similar enough as to not notice the difference without a magnifying glass, if you know what I mean. Ya would really have to know that strain to see what had changed. For me I still think going the S route, rather than F would be easier and I'd be better off, yes? F3 are very unstable & will have lots of phenotypical variations. Infact cannabis is one of the few plants species were a breeder would ever get away with selling them. If you want to breed cannabis your going to need to learn modern breeding techniques or you won't be able to compete at any level seen with the commercial plant breeding companies. Cannabis as been illegal & as such unregulated. As it becomes legal the smaller breeder's won't be able to complete unless they supplied a specialist type seed like you see in giant vegetable community's. These lines are generally inbreed relatives from natural ploidy lines ect shared with a small number of competitors. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHatDriver Posted June 28, 2023 Share Posted June 28, 2023 On 20/06/2023 at 0:24 PM, brock1 said: F3 are very unstable & will have lots of phenotypical variations. Infact cannabis is one of the few plants species were a breeder would ever get away with selling them. If you want to breed cannabis your going to need to learn modern breeding techniques or you won't be able to compete at any level seen with the commercial plant breeding companies. Cannabis as been illegal & as such unregulated. As it becomes legal the smaller breeder's won't be able to complete unless they supplied a specialist type seed like you see in giant vegetable community's. These lines are generally inbreed relatives from natural ploidy lines ect shared with a small number of competitors. Okay, okay. Seems like a real breeding project wont be possible over here as I have a lack of space and time, skill and knowledge. Any good new books on modern breeding techniques or does one just have to hunt the vast space we call the interweb? So have I read you correctly that F1 will dump various phenotypes and F2 will be even worse and F3 worse yet again!.. What about S1 using two different plants of the same strain from seed? I just want seed that will be similar to the original plant/s for my own personal stock, so as not to keep spending a fortune on buying seeds, if you see where I'm coming from. Keeping mothers not really something I want to do. Suppose I'll be buying seed forever now as new strains are always just around the corner. I've noted that even Ace Seed sell F1 - Haze x Kali China F4 - Bangi Haze For example. Just saying... Thanx man. Interesting stuff... Much love and have a good one. PHat... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brock1 Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 20 hours ago, PHatDriver said: Okay, okay. Seems like a real breeding project wont be possible over here as I have a lack of space and time, skill and knowledge. Any good new books on modern breeding techniques or does one just have to hunt the vast space we call the interweb? So have I read you correctly that F1 will dump various phenotypes and F2 will be even worse and F3 worse yet again!.. What about S1 using two different plants of the same strain from seed? I just want seed that will be similar to the original plant/s for my own personal stock, so as not to keep spending a fortune on buying seeds, if you see where I'm coming from. Keeping mothers not really something I want to do. Suppose I'll be buying seed forever now as new strains are always just around the corner. I've noted that even Ace Seed sell F1 - Haze x Kali China F4 - Bangi Haze For example. Just saying... Thanx man. Interesting stuff... Much love and have a good one. PHat... Stable strains are again in the arse. The trouble is finding the ballance between gene diversity & mutations from inbreeding. Mutation is generally worse so the safer option is always going to be large numbers. As for learning here is my advice. First learn the basics from breeders like mandel & burbank but remember these are old basic breeding practices. From their you can progress to genetics as a whole & dont just stick to cannabis because genes are genes is a old geneticists saying that stands very true & is a field of science that is constantly changing. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHatDriver Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 On 29/06/2023 at 0:54 PM, brock1 said: Stable strains are again in the arse. The trouble is finding the ballance between gene diversity & mutations from inbreeding. Mutation is generally worse so the safer option is always going to be large numbers. As for learning here is my advice. First learn the basics from breeders like mandel & burbank but remember these are old basic breeding practices. From their you can progress to genetics as a whole & dont just stick to cannabis because genes are genes is a old geneticists saying that stands very true & is a field of science that is constantly changing. Didn't find anything on mandel & burbank. F1 Hybrids will be different from each parent anyway, right. So I don't see a downside for me. Just gonna get a completely new strain that no one else in the world has tried, right. Could turn out from crap, to basic or might be real nice. Just grow and see. What about starting with two seeds from an already IBL strain. How would they turn out? For instance, I have: White Widow (IBL) Paradise Suppose to be IBLs... Also have a pack of: Northern Light (IBL) Nirvana 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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