A little (actually, a lot) advise plz

[strider]

Nice one

I've a lot to say, and I can run on a bit, so I'll split it into separate posts.

I'm experienced in one form, and one specific style, of hydro. (Individual bubblers.) It would be wrong for me to give specific advice on anything outside my experience, but I've read enough to know what equipment is needed and what isn't. I can also form a valid opinion as to who you should copy, first grow, once the system is decided. (I visit lots of sites.)

1) Space is fine, location has it's own problems. Start getting the light leaks sorted now. Don't want the helicopters seeing THC spelled out in dots of light. Will security be an issue?

2) I can cross a few things off the list and have you spend the dosh in a more productive manner. When starting out, it's all about grams per quid. A £30 fan is a waste of money, so lets not bother.

I've just gone to vertical lighting, it's cheap and looks good so far. Just got the camera fixed, so I'll post a decent pic just before lights on.

(Found a good use for strip lights, HPS is crap for taking pics.)

I'm using 400w in a cellar, and no ventilation. It's summer and my max temp has been 75'F up to now, and I have to use a heater down there as well. Humidity is 80%, and I only have to top up weekly, compared to every other day in a closet.

Hmmmm £245..... you could maybe copy my hydro system with that, though the price of the airpump will make you fall off the chair.

3) There has to be a monthly addition. Electric bills are higher, nutes run out etc. Starting cheap is one thing, staying cheap is soul destroying. Don't be frightened by what comes next, but a good set up costs £1k+. I'm on benefits, and some time January, I'll be there. Cultivation costs me £20 - £30 a month, plus the extra power. Friends don't complain about me not standing my round, and g/fs take me out. It all works out.

(Hey I've spent £20k+ on tobacco, what's £1k for a growroom?)

4) I'll have to answer this one for you, 'cos I visit a Canadian site where growers are getting harvests of 12lb+ from your space every 7 weeks. Too much?

I used to smoke 'till it's gone, but when it doesn't run out, it can get boring. I tend to leave it alone office hours and a few evenings. 1.5 ounces a week should keep a silly smile on your face, double that and you have friends and women. So 3oz a week for a sweet life.

[strider]

(aside for growing philosophy bullshit.)

We either learn from commercial growers or from personal growers who have learned from people who have learned from blah blah.

These guys only talk about one thing. Grams per watt per month, and they buy the equipment that gets results. A poor newbie sees the price list, says "Fuck that for a game of soldiers" and buys strip lights. Some time later a HPS turns up, other things happen and the growroom evolves. All the while, the newbie is learning about how to get more "grams per watt". All the *tricks* are learned. Advice is given to other newbies, even though they've no actual experience and often give false answers, just because they've read those false answers somewhere else.

Yes I've done it, and I also know who else has done it, 'cos I read newbie posts on a number of sites. (I really am that wierd.)

I followed a guy called krusty. God was he rude! He posts his details of the freedom bucket system and some noob asked:

"what type of float valves should I get?"

krusty came back with something like:

"How the fuck should I know you little pissant? Get one that works. Jeez if you can't figure that out, you shouldn't be doing this."

I had questions for krusty, and boy did I make every effort to find the answers first. and I got some great advice from a guy who has supervised 100's of grows.

One tirade changed my life:

"How many times have I got to tell you shits? I don't give a flying fuck how you do it, just get those temperatures to where they should be. I've given you the principles, now apply them to YOUR situatuon."

So my mantra became one of his sayings:

You've got to work this shit out for yourselves.

Then the penny dropped. I don't need grams per watt, I just need grams in the stash box.

krusty focused on g/p/w 'cos he was commercial (retired now). My focus is the stash box.

1kw of lighting can produce 4oz a week average. So if I only need 3oz for a sweet life, it doesn't have to be 100% efficient does it? This is when I lost my "Yield Fever". Felt like Gandalf when he first sees through Saramans charm. Not yet wrinkly enough to have the nick Gandalf, hence it's Strider.

Good scrog growers have backache and great g/w/m figures. Growing weed to cure the backache caused by growing weed. (Well I think it's funny.)

If we could have £10 a week stopped out of our benefits in return for 3oz of (legal) AAA bud a week, just who would be growing their own?

This is £520 a year. More than enough. It can be done with half, but needs patience.

If you like silly puzzles, try this.

1) At local prices of AAA bud, and current interest rates on deposit accounts, what savings would you need to BUY 3oz a week?

2) If a dream job fell into your lap, breast oiler for Playboy or whatever, what wages, before taxes, will let you BUY 3oz a week.

Us paupers will never have those earnings or savings, but we can have the benefits tee hee. It's one hell of a prize.

Trying to screw a decent budget out of a newbie goes something like:

"Naw man, forget the fancy stuff, I'm poor...wanna slice of pizza... overgrow guy says flos are fine...going the wine shop, want anything?..got the seeds with 110% THC...damn, my trainers are scuffed, never mind, there's a sale on."

Until the hydro shops have store cards, it's credit cards or save. (Both in my case.) Buying useless crap will delay you getting to the sweet life, so if you want to end up with hydro, starting with soil is wrong.

I'm a hydro guy, and if you inherited my growroom and got rid of my gear, and spent money on soil, then you're a soil guy.

If you'd use my hydro system if I gave it you for free, you've just gulped, 'cos you've realised there's a bit of cash to be spent.

The journey of a thousand miles has to start with a footstep in the right direction, and the poorer we are, the more painful dead ends become.

There so many of us on my side of the learning curve, most give up trying to help newbies, can't blame them. I'm just a masochist, I guess.

"I want to do it perfect..and cheap."

Flip burgers and save.

"I want to do it perfect...and quick."

Wait.

"Hi fOlKs!!! BuDz the nAme and ................drone."

Grow up.

"How go I get a kilo for a dollar?"

Buy a toy gun and stick up a dealer.

"Hi Dudes, any tricks 'n tips for monster Budz?"

Yes, do it right.

"how long should i flower them before taking clones"

Troll

Only you can place a value on your stash box, and whether or not it's worth £5-10 a week.

Yield fever is dangerous, and impatience is costly and time consuming. Mother Nature punishes the greedy.

Every experienced grower is to some extent, financially responsible and patient. If it's going to happen to you anyway, might as well start now.

There are principles to growing healthy plants, and healthy plants produce loads, no need for tricks. What is needed is the application of the principles to your situation.

As krusty said:

You've got to work this shit out for yourself

Jeez, I sound like my Dad, think I'll go help some kids

"Will keeping a rat in the growroom increase CO2?"

Hey, a new idea, Wow.

(Disclaimer, this ramble is not my fault, I've been smoking honey oil.)

[Arnold Layne]

Good one Strider! And loads of sound advice too.

The stuff about backache - too true! Mind you that lifting keeps one's muscles nicely toned!

[strider]

Red Eye Knight, in this post I'm assuming 3oz a week is plenty for you. 150 oz a year in your space will be a doddle, once the budget is up to snuff.

You've got enough to start, and I know which corners are (relatively) safe to cut.

You can't afford decent ventilation, but using the whole space for 1 400w light, and delaying the start until the weather cools should be fine. My vertical grow finishes around August, so you'll be able to see some results if you decide to go that route. (btw type of garage? wooden roof etc? attached to house?) Paint the roof WHITE

I haven't used ventilation ever, (office fans don't count,) so it's possible. If the garage gets too hot in summer, just shut it down and grow more in winter.

The best method is ... whatever you feel comfortable with, they all work. Your first grow is "cultivation" anyway, best to examine it's benefits before deciding on a production method.

1) Cultivation

A seed grow, 2 a year. (Best to skip summer.) 75 ladies pa needed, so 60 - 70 seedlings a grow should do it. Not the best option for all, but worth considering, about £3 a week in cheap seeds. If busted, no mother plant, but 70 of the buggers when vegging. *cough* OK maybe not, but if it turns out an ounce a week does you fine, it's an option.

2) Production using mother plant(s)

This is the usual method, poor old mom gets shoved in a shoe box with a maglite on her, and she's supposed to give healthy clones. You've the space to have a nice veg room and give her good light. Makes life easy peasy, just get the clones ready for the day after harvest.

4 grows a year means a months veg, so 2oz is no problem. About 20 ladies and mother plant(s).

Bummer #1, it's continous. No holidays, ventilation must be good enough to handle summer or it's back to 1).

Bummer #2, if busted, they'll use the mother plant as proof of production, (which it is,) you sort of have to proove you're not a dealer.

(Can your mate look after mom?)

3) Production using two staggered grows.

I'm going over to this. Cuttings are taken on the last day of veg, no mother plants. If busted it's just two identical growrooms. If your mate has space and is going to get half anyway, he can do his share by having one of the grows.

Both of you risk "cultivation", but not production. Just means carrying a bucket of cuttings between houses from time to time.

7 crops a year, 10 - 12 plants a growroom.

Worst case scenario: busted with #1, 24 growing (and maybe unrooted cuttings) #2 12 growing, 12 drying (and unrooted cuttings).

Can't say yet what the vertical light yields. I'm using ratty clones (NEVER re-veg folks) that gave 2oz under a reflector and they seem to be growing better, but it might be all stem. There is no reflected light on them at all, and I can't even see a pistil properly with just the HPS. (See pic, ) Won't know how many can fit around the light until closer to harvest time.

Loads of time to choose the production method, but is it going to be soil or hydro? (Don't be cheap now, I know the shortcuts to hydro if that's what you really want.)

Some junk is useful. From boot sales/charity shops etc. Look out for heavy dark curtains, ionisers, aquarium pumps etc.

If you can find a junked neon sign, you're very lucky, I haven't managed it yet.

[sittingrelaxing]

nice write-up strider...................

for me to type out something that long,would take me 2 days with my typing skills......

you missed, "it's not rocket science,it's a plant for godsake..........."

the first and best/most important thing i learned was,

switching to 12 solid darkness..........

i was growing fcuking jungles in my bathroom with b&q compost soil,

and feeding them on sugar water..........

but i didn't know about 12/12.............

sr :nowt's better than self-experience to learn:

[strider]

it's not rocket science,it's a plant for godsake

If you view it as rocket science, it is. Can't afford mistakes that far from home. The first moon shot had how many man hours of talking and thinking before anything got built?

Attention to detail IS what rocket science is all about. Complicated systems are more likely to fail. If Nasa could go back in time they'd probably choose the Arial (sp?) rocket, it's more reliable than the shuttle. Crude, but reliable.

I've studied just about every wierd system there is, planet Ido, IR flashing, withholding water just before harvest etc. I've read most of Marijuana Botany and I don't need to know any of it.

It's temperatures, humidity, genetics, light. All the boring stuff that gets ignored while learnig tricks.

Then I got converts zeal in trying to tell newbies how easy it really is. (Whaddya mean you noticed?) and I've studied the phychology of newbies as well. It's a man thing. We're the kids who smoked behind the bike sheds, and getting one of us to "Do it right first time" is no mean feat.

(Look at the response my "Let's design a perfect first grow" thread got.)

Only takes one though. Once it becomes common knowledge "yield fever" is to be guarded against, the fog will clear, and newbies will learn it's £X and Y space to get Z ounces. There is enough collective knowledge on the net to have a wizard tell you the potential of your space/budget.

I'm hoping to help set up "formula grows" or "approved grows" Approved? Jeez, back in school again.

You have £250 and a garage? Click here.

You have the same space as sr? He's done a dumbed down grow with minimum kit for you, click here and do what you're told.

Tight on space? Go to Arnold Laynes Scrog for dummies and do it EXACTLY the way he says 'cos it works.

We only have to do one each. Then we have cloned grows all over the world, Then the experiments have meaning 'cos there is a control, and we can push OUR envelope every bit as well as the big boys push theirs.

sr, I've been trying to write this for a year, just came out as an ego trip or patronising, and I can be real guilty of those two sins. Once I got some encouragement from Red Eye Knight, it just came flooding out.

Better practice what I preach now and go check the buggers. Blow the dust off the strip lights and set them up downstairs to get some OK pics. Always knew they'd come in handy one day, wasn't a waste of money after all.

[strider]

My "Formula Grow" will be as close to soil as hydro can get. Soil without the soil, he he, but with some nice kit.

I'm curious re. what Red Eye Knight is going to choose, keep the thoughts coming sire, talking is cheaper than making mistakes. .

Ayway, here's my trial vertical grow.

http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?act=...7&t=13479&st=0&

[pd666]

i use fluros and there cheap and good as ive always vegged under fluros and there in my eyes a good light scource for what i need im not growing to get loads of weed all i want is my ounce a week which under fluros has always supplied me with. diffrent tokes for diffrent folks but if ur wanting a cheap method then id go with fluros i wouldnt want to use my hps or anything easle as heat and paying for a light on every 18 or 24 hours is not good for me anyway but i manage to do 23 plants per time for fluros is ok for vegging but it all comes down to what suits you cuz if everyone went the same way done everthing the same it would be a boring world

[Red Eye Knight]

strider, sorry about the slow response!

got about 5 friends round last nite, ounces, girls... the "sweet life" i believe u called it. it is indeed sweet yeh, hence this reply comes a little later than u anticipated coz i couldnt get my stoned arse outta my comfy armchair and up the stairs - good old indica, never fails to incapacitate.

right, im growing in soil and only soil, i know ur expertise are mianly hydro grown, but i guess im naturally more of a soil man!

First grow i was thinking of having a mother and 5 or so largish plants. then take cuttings from the mother after the first grow and create two staggered grows. the amount that i should get from the 5 large plants on the first grow should be enough to keep me going until a succession of staggered grows have been produced. fuck sea of green, and anything else complicated - i want it relatively simple to look after, ill write up a timetable of when to add fert to the plant and the composition and strength of the fert etc... its not going to be simple at first, but i want it to become routine.

garage is not attached to a house, lead roof, at least think its lead, metal sheeted anyway. this will not make for a good insulator, but at least at night time it'll cool down. i think a fan mite be necessary coz i am planning on growing all year round, incl. summer! growing is going to be done inside a seperate cabinet inside the garage itself - that cabinet is going to be designed by me (sorry - dont have the design to post here, but the design is in my head) and there is no way light will get in or out! had the idea that if it got too hot in summer i could put buckets of ice in the room - poss hanging from the ceiling. this would help increase humidity too. the inside of the cabinet is of course going to be painted white, no money for that sheeting, im only buying the essentials u c

my back is strong enough to withstand the typical growers back

my m8 and i and sharing growing responsibilities, simply because my mate lives nearer the growing area hes going to do most of the day to day stuff - its my job to find out how to grow well and by the looks of it uve taken it upon urself to tell me how to grow and for that i am grateful! watever we produce, we share, whether its 10lb a day or 1g per year.

[strider]

paradox, I did come on too strong with my anti floro rant, no horse is higher than mine when I'm on one.

You're quite right, if it works, don't fix it. For vegging in a smallish space for a personal grower, they have value ... but ... if you're starting from scratch with good space, and an OK budget, then it's different. I could have put it better, apologies.

Red, you're a soil guy sure enough, doesn't produce quite as much as hydro, but it 's better if busted, that's for sure. Hope it wasn't "our" budget that paid for the ounces.

This thread will have a lot of posts, many of them before a seed gets germinated, so if any experienced growers see potential problems in the set up to come, please chime in.

First grow i was thinking of having a mother

You don't know who she is first grow, so as you want to hit the ground running, you'll have to clone ALL of them before putting them into flower. (Don't let the labels get mixed up.) It might delay the harvest by a few weeks if you have trouble getting them to root, but it means the second grow is assured, and the smoke test will decide the mom for grow 3.

Works pretty cool, say 2/3 clones from each plant, start 12/12, kill males and fill the gaps with known females, and theres still one of each female in the veg room. 2 weeks after harvest, the latecomers are ready to chop.

By "staggered grows" do you mean something like shoving a plant into the flower room every week and harvesting one every week? There are peeps managing this, but it brings it's share of problems. Optimum humidity is relative to weeks in flower, they're different heights, and mom needs a rest after being cut. Having multiple mothers is dangerous.

The easiest routine is to start a grow and have the timetable worked out for the next batch of clones. All plants the same, all treated the same.

ill write up a timetable of when to add fert to the plant and the composition and strength of the fert etc

Good idea, soil gurus struggle to help noobs, 'cos they've no experience with that brand of soil or those ferts. Get some advice for reliable and popular brands. You need answers like "I use xyz soil and 20ml/gall of abc ferts every week, does my girls just fine."

i think a fan mite be necessary coz i am planning on growing all year round, incl. summer!

Sort of. Fans are either expensive or useless. A low budget makes it vital that everything you buy will still be useful further down the line. There's one member here regrets buying a £50 fan. (can't remember who) Newbies have probably bought more fart fans than Barretts. I can give a personal recommend to the RVK150 L1 (680m3 per hour) got it off Gary and haven't fitted it yet, but boy does it suck, quiet too. I've also figured a way to have it low/HIGH and controlled by a thermostat, no expensive controller. Elegant and simple, just like me.

and there is no way light will get in or out

A white painted 3'x4' "box" with no top or bottom can be wrapped around the plants to give better lighting, and the heat can rise to fill the rest of the room. So a big cabinet for heat reasons with white screens close to the edges of the grow to max the light. Mylar sucks, it crinkles, tears and mould can get in behind it. The prosecution always mention "reflective material". Brilliant white is fine.

simply because my mate lives nearer the growing area hes going to do most of the day to day stuff - its my job to find out how to grow well

This is a problem, friendships have ended over a roomful of dead plants. First grow can be a roller coaster ride of emotions, and it's human nature to "do something, ANYTHING" when nervous. It's why intelligent people overwater while knowing they shouldn't. Those £5 water meters are great. Gives him something to do, prodding the soil. You'll have been bored to tears by my banging on about safety first, and he won't have. Maybe you should make him suffer this thread as well?

If you both agree NEVER to change the schedule without consent, then fine. But if you're away for 2 days and he sees a yellow leaf "Ahhh nitrogen defficiency..." Could be magnesium or a few other things and he's overferted them. With your space and budget, it's the biggest threat to the grow, imo, but the risk can be eliminated by remembering it's there.

The other risks are:

1) Odour. It'll get out easier from a garage than a house. There's nothing like that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach when you realise the neighbours can smell your weed. Best is a carbon filter but too expensive for your start up. DIY ozone gens are cheap, IF you can find a neon sign or you can solder. (Got an idea for using a microwave TX, but got no hardware yet.)

2) Heat. Your budget has improved a lot now you've chosen soil. You're raring to go, wanting moms, clones 'n all, so how about starting with the right fan?

Takes about £125 out the budget, but at £250, there's enough for a light and the rest of the kit. (And you'll be able to add a 2nd light asap 'cos you've got ventilation.)

We'd best check air changes per minute before ordering, fairly sure it's good enough for you, but I'm working from memory, and I'm no ventilation expert.

You'll need a good sized passive inlet vent as well, it won't draw air out of a sealed room. Any construction problems?

3) Water quality. This gets overlooked, as we have good drinking water and think it's fine for plants. Usually is OK, but I've seen a few soil grows suffer from duff water (and Ph problems). Any aquarium shops nearby? Some sell it for 15p a litre. Great way to go if you can get it.

No idea how much water a soil grow uses, any ball park figures out there?

by the looks of it uve taken it upon urself to tell me how to grow

There are benefits for me as well as you. This is interesting, helping with one specific grow. Growers get bored. Once I realised the plants preferred it if I buggered off and left them alone, I got into helping newbies, and noticed recurring patterns.

The Canadian goverment had a frigging big cave to grow weed in and a huge budget and produced diddly squat the first year. Sort of funny, but understandable.

That's all it is Red, understanding what's likely to happen next. I can claim some expertise in predicting the success of a first grow, 'cos I've read little else for a year or so. I can price up the growroom you'd choose if you were rich, and help you choose equipment etc. from that list that gets the first crop in, so minimum wastage. It's my only area of expertise, I'm a competant grower, nothing special. Once your first seeds get germinated it's outside my skill set, but if the growroom is set up right, it's likely to be a smooth ride.

Sort of fun isn't it? Espescially when your mate sees the price of the fan.

[pd666]

ohhh yea no probs strider what i was saying was becuase of my cicumstances i go for what suits me but if i had the space u bet id be having a set up like u describe but unfortuatly ive already domintaed 2 meduim cuboards and a big extended cuboard i just like things simple and easy i got more time on my hands so im intrested on ur results of ur verticle grow keep me posted m8 looks well neat i might give it a bash when the council get there arses into gear and give me planning permission for my new garage

[pd666]

hey strider what does a neon light do for plants does it matter if its a mix of blue and red i read ur last post and it mentionned neon lights ?? im curious as i have one sitting doing nuthing in my spare room

[strider]

You got a neon sign? The transformer in them is perfect for making ozone.

[NPK]

Very interesting topic. God knows how long it just took me to read your posts Strider but it was worth it.

I'll just add my 2p

Talking about Yield / Watts / Months made me think.

My definition of a successful grow is that I don't get caught. Next comes the quality and after that the yield.

I would rather see someone buy a carbon filter from the outset as you really don't want to get busted.

Either start so small that smell won't be a problem or wait until you have some odour control in place.

Unless you live very isolated, £150 pounds to protect your liberty has got to be worth the money.

npk

[Red Eye Knight]

first off, cba with the mother all of a sudden, sounds like quite a bit of unnecessary hassle - i could just buy sum more seeds for the second grow! staggered grow - more like a harvest a month maybe 2 months.

how much does that fan u recommended cost strider? (and who's gary?)

did u c Dispatches 2nite? - all that mary j put a big phat smile on my face

m8 and i think we should have the grow room built by friday, but then u know wat stoners r like with time.... that was one of the reasons why i wanted a fan strider, to have one air in and one air out vent. coz the low pressure inside caused by the fan could create a constant breeze thru the cabinet. without fan it would b hard to have an air in only on its own :o

is odour a problem within the first 4 weeks or so? i mite b able to come up with enuf money for the filter is it will b necessary - npk and my better judgement seem to think that it may be necessary.

water quality - have filtered tap water - not that brita stuff, one of those filters under the sink, think its made by a company called Franke TrilFlow... wat exactly is in the tap water that needs filtering, or is it more something that it lacks?

what did u think of the buckets of ice idea from my last post? reckon that would work?

l8r