sweettooth Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 Used to use it, stopped and fixed envrionemt and ph - no issues, however, wherever you look, every nute place says cal mag is required due to the high cation exchange capacity, when you feed your plant with calcium or magnesium, the minerals may never be available to your plant, as it will be exchanging it’s self for sodium and potassium. Currently got some calcium issues going on, maybe as Ive been lazy and havent ph'd, my water is as follows: We have analysed your water results and comments are below, values in parts per million (ppm) except pH. Calcium 86 Magnesium 6 Sulphate 2 Alkalinity 280 pH 7.90 Is it a fair asumption that upping my MG would give enouhg cal mag overall as I dont want to effect my EC too much. Ive read competant growers on here saying cal mag is nothing more than a con, some say its a must in coco. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbillybob Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 (edited) in my humble, totally uneducated opinion, mostly growing hydro, providing your water isnt crazy high or low ph and you feed them sufficient amounts of nutrient, including trace elements, you shouldnt really need cal mag. i used to use it but think most of the problem was due to under feeding tbh im sure somebody who has researched this more than me will be along shortly. there was one member who knew this stuff inside out but my memory is hazy as to who, but his avatar was a spaceman iirc Edited March 6 by badbillybob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSZZ Posted March 6 Share Posted March 6 I think it probably all stems from coco not being well buffered back in the day then compounded by this idea that plants grown under leds need more calcium and magnesium specifically. You should just be able to use a nutrient suited to your water type and not have any issues, in some rare cases you might have to add some epsom salts, most peoples issue arise by using these none-specific types in quite hard or quite soft water and it being unbalanced or they're not neautralising the hard water properly. Some nutrient manufacturers are keen to play on the average canna growers lack of understand and just sell em more shite with a good blag attached. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catweazle1 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 If one has 'perfect water', it's snake oil because, obviously, it needs nowt. I just use Epsom now. My water is 0.7ish, so Ca2+ ions are plentiful. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweettooth Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 (edited) All sound answers and confirms my suspicions. on the subject of neutralising @GSZZ ecothrive neutralise? pretty much vitamin c to remove chlorine or is there another magic trick? I know some hard water nutes use nitric acid to lower pH, should I be looking at using a nitric or citric acid based pH down rather than the typical phosphoric acid from growth technology? something about Nitric acid reacting with calcium and magnesium to form calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate, which are about 98% water soluble. The calcium and magnesium ions remain available to the plant, and little precipitate is formed. Or use amino acids? taken fron another website Amino acids such as glutamic acid, aspartic acid and glycine are intermediate chelators. They attach to the calcium and magnesium ions in hard water, preventing them from reacting with phosphoric acid, thus eliminating the precipitation of insoluble salts. No lime scale is formed. Instead, the calcium and magnesium ions are easily transported into the plant and released where they are needed. Amino acids also act as biostimulants. For example, glutamic acid stimulates root cells to open calcium ion channels. Calcium is imported into the plant thousands of times faster than through simple diffusion. Calcium not only remains available to the plant, it is taken up by the plant much more efficiently. Since the calcium and magnesium salts of pectic acid, together called “pectin”, is the substance that glues the cell walls together, the plant is greatly strengthened.Water and minerals are taken up more efficiently and the plant cells are protected against pathogen and temperature stress. Edited March 7 by sweettooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweettooth Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 plagron lemon kick any better than bog std ph down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lux_Interior Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 27 minutes ago, sweettooth said: plagron lemon kick any better than bog std ph down? A bog standard pH down is likely to contain Phosphoric acid. Lemon Kick contains Citric acid which is organic & less likely to harm all the microbes in your substrate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdog Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 i can say with 100% certainty that if i don't use cal mag my plants go into deficiency, i've had this issue for about ten years and grown in good and bad environments, in compost, compost/coco and now straight coco same old story i use 1mlpl and for what it costs to use, i don't see why anyone should give a fuck about it any more if you don't want to use it, then don't, and stop criticising people who do cue captain beef heart to give his usual wonderful insight 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu914 Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 Never used it, never checked water quality in any of the various places around the country where I've had a groom either. I've been using ph perfect nutes for years and the only problem's been a dodgy CF truncheon which caused massive over fertilisation... (not helped by the guidlines on the nute bottles and me taking my eye off the ball...) My current Glookie Bomb grow is by far the best I've had after changing the truncheon and expect a quality harvest this weekend. My point is that if used correctly these nutes cut out all the guesswork and 'optional extras' that many growers get bogged down with...you know what they say..."KISS"...(keep it simple, stupid) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuddymucker Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 Bio bizz up / down perhaps 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweettooth Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 48 minutes ago, ratdog said: and for what it costs to use, i don't see why anyone should give a fuck about it any more if you don't want to use it, then don't, and stop criticising people who do wasn’t criticising anyone Ratdog, as I said, I used it before as thought it was a necessity, haven’t used it on previous runs for a while, only time i saw deficiencies was when i was lazy and didn’t ph which led me to me other question about ph downs and there effect on calcium and magnesium which may also be a contributing factor as using phosphorus based ph downs may remove some of the useable CA and MG, thus adding to the deficiency problem and requiring more calmag. Im aiming on getting my EC correct and don’t want to waste valuable EC by using cal mag when its not required. @stu914 get what your saying, when i use the "recommeneded amounts" my ec is waay higher and often get nute burn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSZZ Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 (edited) 3 hours ago, sweettooth said: on the subject of neutralising @GSZZ ecothrive neutralise? pretty much vitamin c to remove chlorine or is there another magic trick? I know some hard water nutes use nitric acid to lower pH, should I be looking at using a nitric or citric acid based pH down rather than the typical phosphoric acid from growth technology? something about Nitric acid reacting with calcium and magnesium to form calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate, which are about 98% water soluble. The calcium and magnesium ions remain available to the plant, and little precipitate is formed. Or use amino acids? Neutralise is just for the chlorine in the water, nothing to do with water hardness. Cannabis is chlorine tolerant and I always believed its effect on soil bacteria etc were over stated so I never bothered with it, and its dear for it what it is I've seen that about Amino Acids before, but I'm not too sure I believe how effective they are (edit - at neutralising hard water). I make use of amino acids quite a bit in my mixes and I couldnt get away with not using some kind of buffering. I'd recommend Nitric Acid as per your description it reacts with the cal and mag carbonate to form calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate, components of most part As - the nitric acid carbonate reaction is actually how they make the salts calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate and its how any good nute manufacturer balances their hard water variant by cutting the calcium nitrate in the part A, and making the nitrogen back up with Nitric Acid, and to utilise whats in the water. Phosphoric acid binds with the calcium in the water to make insoluable calcium phosphate, which is that nasty white chalky shit that forms on drippers and stuff - I used that T.A Dual Part stuff on a few runs recently, and whilst I liked it, all the pH buffering was done with phosphoric acid in the part B, on its own it wasn't enough, using more phosphoric acid locked calcium out completely and plants got deficient quick - in the end I did the other half of the pH buffering with Citric Acid, but it didn't hold as well as Nitric Acid and I still ended up with calcium lock out later into flower, something I've not seen in like 10 years Since I started mixing my own nutes and buffering it with nitric acid as described I've not had a single issue, I'd recommend it, but, without balancing it properly its very easy to overdo the nitrogen, especially in flower, and most nutrients don't facilitate you not using them in equal amounts. Edited March 7 by GSZZ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweettooth Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 (edited) Im hand watrering for now so only making small batches of feed so maybe Ill give citric acid a go and see how i get on. I know the phospursus stuff is now weaker due to all the acid attacks and new regulations but still dont want that shit messing up my feed. I am using GA nutes which know uses nitric acid Edited March 7 by sweettooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSZZ Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 7 minutes ago, sweettooth said: I am using GA nutes which know uses nitric acid You shouldn't really have any issues just not pHing it beyond what the base nutrients do ime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweettooth Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 8 minutes ago, GSZZ said: You shouldn't really have any issues just not pHing it beyond what the base nutrients do ime im getting a new pen today, i still find my ph is wildy high, neart 7 almost and ive got some brown spots appearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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