Amanojaku Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 On 06/02/2024 at 11:22, Hazeytones said: No I only had issues once I went into flower, they were fine during veg. Once the lights get ramped up that's when I started to have issues. I've now switched to living soil so I don't use any bottle nutes now other than for mums. I just feed them a bit of fish mix and seaweed extract and a bit of cal mag when they show signs of deficiency. If you need to use cal mag you would be increasing through flower, well that's how it was with the biobizz stuff, so decreasing the first three weeks of flower to nothing won't have helped if your water was low on cal mag. What nutrients are you using? I see mate. Do you have any photos of the problem you had? Did they end up with deficiencies that weren't just a lack of nitrogen? Mine got crispy leaves, some fans outright dying off, and weird light coloured lines down the centre of the leaves, that followed the veins of the leaf outwards - but looking at charts online I couldn't tell for sure if it was a deficiency or a lockout. It did look like a cal/mag issue, but not sure. I fed a hefty feed with extra cal/mag thinking I'd launch them into flower with plenty of food. Which is why I thought it was overfeeding and lockout of some kind. Low root temps might have also been an issue. I was using Plant Magic old timer nutes, and plant magic cal/mag. In plant magic supreme soil. Thinking I'd like to try a different soil next time. Living soil would be great, but I have a fish and shellfish allergy so wonder if that wouldl be a problem seeing as a lot of living soil mixes require some sort of fishy component... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 17 minutes ago, Tempus Meum said: Hey man, I'm using the same lights in a 4x4 currently running 5 x autos.. I think one of mine could be on the way to being in trouble, what would your advice be? Hi mate. They just look a little hungry? Maybe up your veg feed a bit. What power setting are you running the light on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempus Meum Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 6 hours ago, Amanojaku said: Hi mate. They just look a little hungry? Maybe up your veg feed a bit. What power setting are you running the light on? Hey man, thanks for the reply and input. I've only been giving them 1ml of Bio-Silicon per 1l and last feed 2 days ago had 1ml of Plant Magic Grow per 1l as well.. I'd read that autos were light feeders but would you suggest upping the dosage? Also lights are at about 24"-30" above canopy and currently at 50%. Was going to flick it up to 75% during early flowering They're currently 23/24 days old 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweettooth Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 @Amanojaku If your waters hard already, just get some epsom salts, plants often require higher levels of MG when switching over, although leds do require higher MG as that drives chlorophyll production and that's the chemical that turns all those extra led photons into energy. higher ambient temps as you said. like Billy, I've gone back to hps, picked up some 400V ballasts and lights dirt cheap but will run my lunatek 465 pro in the middle, looking back through my grow diary's, the best yield and quality was mixed led and hps, hps adds the warmth and that raw red power wheres as the led gives it that overall full spectrum and extra beans for density and terps 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 On 08/02/2024 at 07:35, sweettooth said: @Amanojaku If your waters hard already, just get some epsom salts, plants often require higher levels of MG when switching over, although leds do require higher MG as that drives chlorophyll production and that's the chemical that turns all those extra led photons into energy. higher ambient temps as you said. like Billy, I've gone back to hps, picked up some 400V ballasts and lights dirt cheap but will run my lunatek 465 pro in the middle, looking back through my grow diary's, the best yield and quality was mixed led and hps, hps adds the warmth and that raw red power wheres as the led gives it that overall full spectrum and extra beans for density and terps I do live in a hardwater area mate, so you recomment epsom salts...and that's just for the magnesium side of things? In the week running up to and a few weeks after the flip? The idea being the hard water already provides the calcium? I wonder if I was overdoing calcium then. I have often wondered if just upping calcium and magnesium at the same time is a good idea, seems like there might be more of need for one over the other, or do they tend to end up in defecit together? Gonna look at under pot heating mats to warm up the root zone. Going back to a mixed HPS/LED setup sounds ideal man. I bet that produces some top bud. I really think that leaf surface warming IR and red from those lamps is important, but I can't afford to run a HID in my tent on top of the Zeus unfortunately. At the other end of the spectrum (literally) I've also found the little dose of UV halides offer also seems to increase potency (there are various studies of THC concentration in wild cannabis and the higher up the mountain you go, the stronger they get, and the theory is increasing UV as you increase in altitude). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 (edited) On 08/02/2024 at 07:35, sweettooth said: Edited February 12 by Amanojaku Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 On 08/02/2024 at 06:41, Tempus Meum said: Hey man, thanks for the reply and input. I've only been giving them 1ml of Bio-Silicon per 1l and last feed 2 days ago had 1ml of Plant Magic Grow per 1l as well.. I'd read that autos were light feeders but would you suggest upping the dosage? Also lights are at about 24"-30" above canopy and currently at 50%. Was going to flick it up to 75% during early flowering They're currently 23/24 days old Hello mate. Just looking at that one plant, it definitely looks like it needs a touch more nitrogen, so up the plant magic grow by 0.5 or 1ml - so try 1.5ml per l then try 2ml per l. I've only grown autos outside, but 1ml per l seems low for vegging. You want them to look a deeper shade of green than that, just back off if they start going too dark green! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 What are people's thoughts on using cider vinegar or lemon juice to lower the pH of hard water, so to break some of the unavaillable calcium minerals in the water down to make them more available to the plant? I've figured my issue is two fold - looking at the water chemistry in my area it's VERY hard, high in calcium, but lower in magnesium. So I've started using Epsom salts, and it seems to have helped, but as you up magnesium, calcium starts to lock out, so now I'm seeing signs of cal deficiency (tiny brown spots all over lower and mid level fans and some yellowing spreading out from bottom of leaf). The question is: do I just lower the pH of the water to allow the plants to get at more of the cal that's already there, or do I just add some cal supplementally? I have some PM cal/mag, but using it last run I actually ended up with a magnesium deficiency. Overalll I'm finding growing with this Zeus pro a bit of a pain haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSZZ Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, Amanojaku said: What are people's thoughts on using cider vinegar or lemon juice to lower the pH of hard water, so to break some of the unavaillable calcium minerals in the water down to make them more available to the plant? Rubbish, requires loads to achieve what you want and then it doesn't hold. pH bounces back within a matter of hours. Nitric acid is your best choice, but when using bottle nutrients its hard not to over do it on the nitrogen. 1 hour ago, Amanojaku said: So I've started using Epsom salts, and it seems to have helped, but as you up magnesium, calcium starts to lock out, so now I'm seeing signs of cal deficiency Whats your environment saying, before you go down a rabbit hole you probably don't need to go down? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 48 minutes ago, GSZZ said: Rubbish, requires loads to achieve what you want and then it doesn't hold. pH bounces back within a matter of hours. Nitric acid is your best choice, but when using bottle nutrients its hard not to over do it on the nitrogen. Could you elaborate on the nitrogen mate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 56 minutes ago, GSZZ said: Whats your environment saying, before you go down a rabbit hole you probably don't need to go down? Temps are in the mid 20s celcius - 23 to 27 depending on ambient temps - rH has been a bit low throughout veg due to the oil rad I'm running. That's in the 35 to 45 rH range now, after just flipping. One theory I have why I'm running into trouble (which could be nonsense, just a theory) is that I get my clones from up North, and I'm on the south coast near the downs so I get super hard, chalky water, whereas the mum these came from would have lived on much softer water. Could that be an issue and why I end up with lockouts or issues in the first month of veg? The plants look pretty good though, just wondering what this spotting is on the Gelato X Zkittlez 33z, and I got weird twisty fans on the Divine Jelly even though, again, that seemed to be the extent of it. Thinking the latter might just be a genetic thing, or the air being too dry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted April 4 Author Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, GSZZ said: Here's what the issue looked like a few weeks ago: Now after using epsom salts and I have been using cider vinegar (though I guess it's not been doing fuck all) here they are in first week of flower, 3 or so weeks on from the above photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSZZ Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 5 hours ago, Amanojaku said: Could that be an issue and why I end up with lockouts or issues in the first month of veg? No. 5 hours ago, Amanojaku said: Could you elaborate on the nitrogen mate? nutrients have nitrogen in them - nitric acid is nitrogen, with a single part feed you can't lower the nitrogen without lowering all the rest of the nutrients, so you either over feed on nitrogen or underfeed on everything else. Two part nutrients are a bit different, with the nitrogen and calcium, and to a lesser degree potassium and magnesium (in their nitrate forms) in, typically, the part A. You could lower the part A and lower the nitrogen and calcium, and make up the loss of nitrogen with the nitric acid, which also frees up the calcium and less so magnesium already present in your water - but - two part bottled nutrients and bought in, and sold to you the end user as a pair which presents the problem that you'll run out one part quicker than the other. The other option is stick in on top anyway, but then you'll over do the nitrogen and it wont be nice to smoke. but, thats all irrelevent to this situation (for now), because you need to fix this: 5 hours ago, Amanojaku said: Temps are in the mid 20s celcius - 23 to 27 depending on ambient temps - rH has been a bit low throughout veg due to the oil rad I'm running. That's in the 35 to 45 rH range now, after just flipping. As it stands your environment is not conducive to plants photosynthesizing, and as a result not transpiring either. Calcium getting around the plant is fixed with transpiration, if anything effects transpiration in one way or another, calcium is the first thing to suffer because the plant can't get it up from the roots. Your lights on temps want to be 27 - 31c under LED due to their lack of radiant heat, which means the difference between air temps and actual plants temps is much bigger than under traditional lighting, there could be as much as 5c difference between air temps and plant temps and photosythensis happens most effectively at 28c, at the leaf. Furthermore, when humidity is as low as yours is (it wants to be about 60%) your plants lose too much water when they do actually transpire, which means they close their stomata on the underside of the leaves to conserve water - which means they stop photosythensizing. Ontop of all this, having your light on too high without balancing it with the rest of your environmental parameters will cause your plant to just shut down and stop photosythensizing. Your plants could only be photosynthesizing and transpiring for a few hours each day, and the rest of the time they're hanging onto dear life whilst you're burning leccy for nothing. They deffo needed that dose of Epsom salts based on the last set of pictures you posted they look miles better - but you can tell by how red the stems are and how lightly coloured and kinda "domed" the foliage is that something is still holding them back. Hope this helps 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanojaku Posted April 5 Author Share Posted April 5 17 hours ago, GSZZ said: No. nutrients have nitrogen in them - nitric acid is nitrogen, with a single part feed you can't lower the nitrogen without lowering all the rest of the nutrients, so you either over feed on nitrogen or underfeed on everything else. Two part nutrients are a bit different, with the nitrogen and calcium, and to a lesser degree potassium and magnesium (in their nitrate forms) in, typically, the part A. You could lower the part A and lower the nitrogen and calcium, and make up the loss of nitrogen with the nitric acid, which also frees up the calcium and less so magnesium already present in your water - but - two part bottled nutrients and bought in, and sold to you the end user as a pair which presents the problem that you'll run out one part quicker than the other. The other option is stick in on top anyway, but then you'll over do the nitrogen and it wont be nice to smoke. but, thats all irrelevent to this situation (for now), because you need to fix this: As it stands your environment is not conducive to plants photosynthesizing, and as a result not transpiring either. Calcium getting around the plant is fixed with transpiration, if anything effects transpiration in one way or another, calcium is the first thing to suffer because the plant can't get it up from the roots. Your lights on temps want to be 27 - 31c under LED due to their lack of radiant heat, which means the difference between air temps and actual plants temps is much bigger than under traditional lighting, there could be as much as 5c difference between air temps and plant temps and photosythensis happens most effectively at 28c, at the leaf. Furthermore, when humidity is as low as yours is (it wants to be about 60%) your plants lose too much water when they do actually transpire, which means they close their stomata on the underside of the leaves to conserve water - which means they stop photosythensizing. Ontop of all this, having your light on too high without balancing it with the rest of your environmental parameters will cause your plant to just shut down and stop photosythensizing. Your plants could only be photosynthesizing and transpiring for a few hours each day, and the rest of the time they're hanging onto dear life whilst you're burning leccy for nothing. They deffo needed that dose of Epsom salts based on the last set of pictures you posted they look miles better - but you can tell by how red the stems are and how lightly coloured and kinda "domed" the foliage is that something is still holding them back. Hope this helps Wow, yeah it helps mate, cheers. Lot to take in. It seems a nightmare to keep the room heated to that level AND keep the humidity up, but I guess I've gotta figure that out. Actually going to grow through the summer now - which I wouldn't have with HID, not possible to keep temps down - as the humidity and temps will naturally be a lot higher. It's turning out just as expensive to run this zeus pro with all the heating! Short term fix should I maybe run the light at 50% until mid flower? It's been at 75% since mid veg. It's a 600w zeus pro, in a 4 x 4, for reference. Can you recommend a better organic bottled nute than the oldtimer stuff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shumroom Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 4 hours ago, Amanojaku said: It's turning out just as expensive to run this zeus pro with all the heating! But your bud quality will be improved As all tops are now receiving the ideal amount of light, instead of great in the centre and decreased quality nearer the edges. Reverse your circulation to reduce heating costs. Extract from low down and warmer air will be drawn down over the canopy Atb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now