Ricky Gervais | Challenging Belief

[ratdog]

2 hours ago, Asher Gong said:

Well your disbelief is obviously something you are passionate about, you draw conviction from it to the point where you say delving into the unknown is a waste of time. You're atheism defines your outlook. That's fine mate, be what you are..you're happy no?.

 

My life is enchanted, magical, full of awe and wonder, i'm sorry if that offends the cynical. I wonder where people think creativity comes from? where the poetry and music, art and inspiration comes from? I'm a creative ratdog, my very understanding and perceptions come from delving into what can't be measured and what I don't understand. It gets me vexed when people infer it is valueless.It is Reality for me and not for you, I am not asking anyone to believe but just leave it off, you can believe or you can choose not to believe, but the title of the thread is challenging beliefs, and I say fuck off and let people believe what they want as long as they do no harm. You are an atheist, you do not "believe", it seems non sensical to me, like a positive negative but fuck it whatever you need to get by.

 

 

It vexes me when people try to pigeon hole me mate, and please don`t suggest that a word like atheism defines my outlook, it`s the closest word that suits the fact I don`t believe in god etc, if you need another label for me then use it.

 

You are not offending me in the slightest, i`m glad your life is "enchanted, magical, full of awe and wonder" because I feel exactly the same when staring up into the night sky and wondering what is going to happen next, perhaps we will have another amazing comet to entertain our imaginations like Hale-Bopp did for many months, or Betelgeuse will explode, giving us another mini sun to light up the night sky for a while, who knows what`s happening next?!

 

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I am not asking anyone to believe but just leave it off

 

 

Leave what off, I`m just stating my position, not telling anyone else what to think or believe, I stated that with what I said about my friends and family`s beliefs. If you can`t handle it, then leave me to it, I`m not telling you how to think mate, I don`t care what you think, whatever get`s you by is fine with me too. 

 

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You are an atheist, you do not "believe", it seems non sensical to me, like a positive negative but fuck it whatever you need to get by.

 

See, you are missing the point yet again, I don`t need anything to get me by except my love of the natural world, there`s nothing to believe imho so I don`t, but please don`t get on your high horse by saying "fuck it" , or perhaps just say that and leave it there. I did say some people can`t understand why I don`t think like they do, and the above sums it up perfectly.

 

I don`t believe, but I care passionately about science and the universe and everything in it, and I`m always learning about it every day, why can`t that be enough? E2a, if this was you thread about your beliefs I would leave you to it, but it`s not, it`s about challenging beliefs, although you seem to be doing more of that than me.

Edited April 6, 2017 by ratdog

[Asher Gong]

Well tbh I don't understand your arguments what beliefs am I challenging ?

Anyhow I was never challenging your atheist non belief...you're wrong I do understand why you don't think like I do. It is clear to me, not to you, because you don't "understand" my perspective   and you never will because you are antagonistic towards it.

I happen to appreciate and value your position, I have no desire for you to change it. I have not dismissed your position, but you are dismissive of mine. 

I am glad that the natural world fills you with wonder and that something moves you beyond the mundane.

Sorry I didn't realise that debate in the challenging belief thread was not welcome.

Anyways this conversation is over as I'm starting to feel baited by you and tiring of your passive aggression.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by Asher Gong

[Boojum]

Just my unqualified opinion but I'd say that actual, true atheism is a belief - a belief (or certainty, whatever, same difference) that there is no God. Atheism isn't just an absence of belief in a God, as far as I see it it goes further than that, it's a belief in the absence of a God. I don't believe in a God, but neither do I actively disbelieve, I wouldn't describe myself as an atheist. I'd describe myself as agnostic (though I'm sure many people would simply describe me as a twat )- I don't know if there is a God, and what's more I don't think I can really ever know for sure. I seriously doubt there is a God but I'm not 100% sure that there isn't, I don't have the conviction in my lack of belief to be an atheist, I just have considerable doubt. I guess that makes me bad from both sides I'm a Godless heathen to believers, and a wishy-washy, uncommitted cop-out to the atheists

 

 

E2A I do, however, absolutely disbelieve the dogma of organised religion (no offense meant to any adherents of organised religion, everyone is entitled to believe whatever they choose ).

 

Eagain2A I confess I'm occasionally (only very occasionally, generally when depressed) envious of believers, the certainty must be very comforting (which, I guess, is the whole point of religion, shame it's misused by some as a means of control ).

Edited April 6, 2017 by Boojum

[Guest StonerCol]

Ricky Gervais is still a tosser.

 

[Jimboo]

5 minutes ago, StonerCol said:

Ricky Gervais is still a tosser.

 

 

[ratdog]

13 hours ago, Asher Gong said:

 

I happen to appreciate and value your position, I have no desire for you to change it. I have not dismissed your position, but you are dismissive of mine. 

 

Sorry I didn't realise that debate in the challenging belief thread was not welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I`m not dismissing yours at all, I just don`t like being labelled by force, if I don`t believe I have to be this, that, or the other?. I told you I don`t have a problem with others believing what they want.

 

It`s you who are challenging my idea, you told me to "leave it" did you not?

 

This is mental all I said was I see atheism as a disbelieve thing, in a challenging beliefs thread. It`s not a system, never has been.

 

Now lets just enjoy this lovely weather and agree to disagree.

[Arnold Layne]

God is a word. Nothing more, nothing less. A vocal sound that we make when discussing that sense of awe and astonishment we feel at the universe we are a part of.

Define God, and there is no God. Just a doctrine, a human teaching.

 

We need to push back beyond, to the roots of religion. Probably Fungal in nature, apes consuming Psilocybin almost certainly.

 

To argue that God is a mushroom experience is nothing new, nor is it eccentric or dippy-hippy-shyte. The theology of mushroom, as one might call it, was put forward by a very eminent philosopher/theologian who was immediately silenced and trashed by the establishment.

 

Read John Allegro, "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross"; eat a shed~load of Liberty caps, then start your talk about God...... You'll certainly have a clearer vision of the subject matter

Edited April 8, 2017 by Arnold Layne

[botanics]

@Arnold Layne

 

It's fascinating though mate and the above is a good way of thinking about where it all comes from too, aye no doubt some plant eating epiphanies from early humans/apes it's just why ? Why the fuck do some plants do this to our consciouses, the purpose etc, cause and effect and for what reason of enlightenment ? 

 

Personally I believe in a purpose to everything see, like everything is designed (hence the reactive forces of action and consequence) but the genius is how to contain a complete freedom of choice within it all, the variables are staggering and the scope of the universe to be able to provide that beyond comprehension, but it must be so or 'channeled' we are without our knowledge and for that it means our thoughts are not our own, but anothers.

 

But who's ?  The collective consciousness of all directing material events such as some would argue that the material was borne from pure energy and the 'big bang' ?

or higher beings, creators of the fabric which we ride on?

 

I don't care about knowing really, it's the wonderment and seeking to discover that is the buzz, the new questions I find, just fascinating  

 

Like your words Arnie, lots of life learning in them bud

[Hiphip]

Goddess

 

Cheers

[Nick Berry]

Maybe we were visited by aliens, panspermia or ancient people were far more advanced than we give them credit for and evidence got washed away 12000 odd years ago when the ice age ended now doesn't that get covered in the bible

 

 

[botanics]

We can only 'see' what out physiology lets us see, super intelligence could walk among us and oblivious to it we will always be.

[Nick Berry]

Building extravagant places of worship while the worshippers live in poverty. Does god tell those to claim to communicate with god thats the way forward?

[Boojum]

5 hours ago, Arnold Layne said:

God is a word. Nothing more, nothing less. A vocal sound that we make when discussing that sense of awe and astonishment we feel at the universe we are a part of.

Define God, and there is no God. Just a doctrine, a human teaching.

 

We need to push back beyond, to the roots of religion. Probably Fungal in nature, apes consuming Psilocybin almost certainly.

 

To argue that God is a mushroom experience is nothing new, nor is it eccentric or dippy-hippy-shyte. The theology of mushroom, as one might call it, was put forward by a very eminent philosopher/theologian who was immediately silenced and trashed by the establishment.

 

Read John Allegro, "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross"; eat a shed~load of Liberty caps, then start your talk about God...... You'll certainly have a clearer vision of the subject matter

 

 

 

I used to describe myself as an atheist as a teenager - I did have absolute faith in my view that there is no such thing as God (probably because what I understood by the term God was really the God of organised religion - whichever religion, their Gods are all much of a muchness when you get right down to it). My atheism was a belief - a belief that there is not, cannot possibly be, a God. Then I did hallucinogens, mainly acid and shrooms. And I did a hell of a lot And occasionally pondered the question of God while on them (and sometimes had full-on, ego death peak experiences, which are as close to a religious experience as I've ever encountered). And became less certain of my certainty that there is no God, cannot possibly be a God. I still don't believe in the dogma of organised religion, as I've said. But I can no longer say I'm an atheist - I still don't believe, as such, doubt is still my overriding feeling, but I no longer actively disbelieve, I don't entirely reject the notion that there may possibly be something that could be described as God - some greater consciousness that is so far bigger than me that I could no more comprehend it than an amoeba could comprehend a supercomputer. So I'm agnostic, I don't believe but neither do I disbelieve (in the concept of something that could be called God, which I reiterate is not the same thing as the Gods of organised religions, which I do absolutely reject). What's more I just don't think I can ever know one way or the other, if there is a God then I couldn't possibly comprehend it. So I just tend not to think too much about it

Edited April 8, 2017 by Boojum

[botanics]

Very similar to how I used to think when younger too @Boojum only without the acid induced epiphanies  

 

Do you think it's a rebelllion thing though dude ? (Actively disbelieving when young and whether it carries through)

 

For me and my personal journey it absolutely was, I didn't realise it at the time and only this last few years of course but now I do, but much of that is complete confusion about who the hell I was for that matter, which explaims a lot).

 

I got theories see, creatives, depression, the universe and what it is we species are doing wrong, but I think too much anyway and probably bonkers

[Boojum]

12 minutes ago, botanics said:

Very similar to how I used to think when younger too @Boojum only without the acid induced epiphanies  

 

Do you think it's a rebelllion thing though dude ? (Actively disbelieving when young and whether it carries through)

 

For me and my personal journey it absolutely was, I didn't realise it at the time and only this last few years of course but now I do, but much of that is complete confusion about who the hell I was for that matter, which explaims a lot).

 

 

 

 

Aye, it was for me. Every Sunday as a kid I was forced to go to Sunday school in the morning followed by what seemed like interminable hours in church afterwards, and from a very early age I just thought "This is all bullshit." so my rejection of God was definitely rebellion against that - I threw the baby out with the bathwater, I still think Christian dogma is all bullshit (sorry, I don't mean to offend anyone, just speaking personal opinion, I found the carrot-and-stick morality of heaven and hell to be laughable, I found the Biblical fairytales to be uninspired and uninspiring - I found The Brothers Grimm and that sort of European fairytale to be far more compelling to be honest) but because I was rejecting that (mainly due to having had it forced on me) I also rejected everything else that the word God could be used for. Having thought about it for a number of decades since (under the influence of substances and not ) I've kinda rejected my rejection, I still don't believe, I still have doubt as my overwhelming attitude, but I concede that there may, just may, be more to things than I currently know or understand (E2A I've come to that conclusion about most things, religious and otherwise, to be honest I used to think I knew it all now all I really know for certain is that I actually know fuck all maybe I'm getting wiser in my middle age - I certainly couldn't get any less wise than I was when I was younger )

Edited April 8, 2017 by Boojum