Fry Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 @Cursed Thank you for posting that! I couldn't even begin to find the words at the moment but that's a very similar understanding to what I was reaching with what Cambium was saying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cursed Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Fry said: ! I couldn't even begin to find the words at the moment Ironic based on what were talking about 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Breezus said: @Cambium Dude, how many ways can I say I disagree with your assertion. The Examples are in this thread. Please don't tag me any further or quote me as we are not going to reach agreement here. By your standards pre conversant homo erectus was without consciousness because the frontal lobe was not developed enough for language . I simply do not accept that as I do not accept the blanket belief that non linguistic life is without consciousness . Forgive me if on this occasion I don't feel the need to justify that but, I don't. ffs, stop getting so bloody irate and dismissive, it does you no favours. Your use of consciousness, intelligence, understanding are not up to the task of expressing your point. I haven't claimed to know anything, I'm postulating and offering up ideas in what is quite an interesting and unknown topic of discussion. I'm prepared to carry on if you jump of that fucking high horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I know mate, it hadn't escaped me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 25 minutes ago, Breezus said: The Examples are in this thread. 1st actual example in this thread was joint on page 3 with, Empathy? Good sound example that made me stop and actually think. That along with discussion about understanding gained when tripping with fry, have both adapted my view on this. Just a heads up what can happen when someone engages in proper discussion rather than trying to shut it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, Cambium said: 1st actual example in this thread was joint on page 3 with, Empathy? Good sound example that made me stop and actually think. That along with discussion about understanding gained when tripping with fry, have both adapted my view on this. Just a heads up what can happen when someone engages in proper discussion rather than trying to shut it down. Insulting someone for not finding the stimuli that engaged your brain is logically retarded. I'm glad others have engaged you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.o.i.n.t Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 It's a thread that's got me thinking, too @Cambium. I'm currently volunteering for a self-advocacy organisation, working with people with 'moderate' learning disabilities. They also work on 'Easy Read' versions of letters you'd get from doctors, lawyers, the police - basically organisations not known for their clarity, their paperwork often loaded with complex terminology that can exclude. Been doing a lot of thinking and learning on how we keep the meaning, yet allow them to be accessible. It's really interesting. Mostly, though, I've been learning that sometimes a flower is just a flower - a thing we can all appreciate, even if we don't know what a stamen or pistil is. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, j.o.i.n.t said: It's a thread that's got me thinking, too @Cambium. I'm currently volunteering for a self-advocacy organisation, working with people with 'moderate' learning disabilities. They also work on 'Easy Read' versions of letters you'd get from doctors, lawyers, the police - basically organisations not known for their clarity, their paperwork often loaded with complex terminology that can exclude. Been doing a lot of thinking and learning on how we keep the meaning, yet allow them to be accessible. It's really interesting. Mostly, though, I've been learning that sometimes a flower is just a flower - a thing we can all appreciate, even if we don't know what a stamen or pistil is. So do we understand that a flower is beautiful, or appreciate it's beauty? I think we appreciate it's beauty instinctively, but only gain understanding of why the flower is beautiful to us, when we can communicate the experiences that flower gives us. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 19 minutes ago, Breezus said: Insulting someone for not finding the stimuli that engaged your brain is logically retarded. And so is getting the uff when asked to explain claims that you're making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 18 minutes ago, Cambium said: So do we understand that a flower is beautiful, or appreciate it's beauty? I think we appreciate it's beauty instinctively, but only gain understanding of why the flower is beautiful to us, when we can communicate the experiences that flower gives us. Very intruiging. But does understanding why you find the flower beautiful via communication actually add anything to that experiencing of the beauty in itself? Or does it subtract from it? I think perhaps too much understanding can sometimes not neccessarily be a good thing. The old adage of ignorance is bliss. Also, with pondering the beauty of the flower I cannot help but be reminded of this again: 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.o.i.n.t Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 15 minutes ago, Cambium said: So do we understand that a flower is beautiful, or appreciate it's beauty? I think we appreciate it's beauty instinctively, but only gain understanding of why the flower is beautiful to us, when we can communicate the experiences that flower gives us. All I know is you can see it in the eyes, even if a person doesn't have the ability to talk or use these words we take for granted. The lack of ability to express, to wax lyrical, seems unimportant. Infact, I'd say, reductionism may reduce the joy...by planting the flag of definition, we're not just enjoying a flower any more. Like I say, though - I still have a lot to learn *shrug* 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 You've hit the spot on this @Cambium....couldn't agree more. Seriously @Breezus, what's your problem lately? Why do you insist on derailing interesting conversations by being so rude and stubborn? You don't know it all so stop talking down to people like you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 (edited) Sorry, drunk ramble about language & stuff prompted by what Cambium was saying. E2A And too much cider Language allows us to make feelings into ideas. Shit, I dunno how to explain it, because language doesn't and can't convey everything that we think or feel, but the way I perceive my mind working is that the birth of a thought in my head is a deep down feeling. That feeling then kinda comes to the surface and I think about it, and thinking about it is putting it in words in my mind, so I can focus on it. It was a feeling first, then it became a thought and it became words in my head, but thinking about it - making it into words in my head - allows me to kinda nail it down as an idea. Edited July 4, 2018 by Boojum 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Apologies if I came across as being belligerent, I did not intend to. I'm finding it hard to understand why however, one cannot simply disagree without being ostracized. My opinion is not for anyone to reconcile but me surely. I don't discount other opinions when I disagree I'm only expressing a different view. We do not in my opinion live in a world of absolutes so all things are or should be open to questions . I'm still trying to ascertain if perspective is reality. Without that underlying premise being resolved everything else is subjective depending on perception. Since I can only view the world through my eyes , someone else's view May not be my reality and vice versa. So, if I've offended anyone with my views, apologies as I didn't expect the response I received. I will no longer be taking part in these discussions as the style of them isn't to my taste. I will politely request you don't quote me or tag me as I have no further wish to discuss these matters on this platform. I respect everyone's opinions and right to express them I hope you'll offer me the same . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Quote We do not in my opinion live in a world of absolutes I think this is getting closer to hitting the nail on the head tbh. The problem seems to be that we're trying to talk in absolutes. Understanding, or language. When really, I think that maybe one is not found without the other in the real (as opposed to theoretical or abstract) world. The only absolute I keep running into, and even then it's not really an absolute, is that of balance. Balance seems to be at the heart of the universe. Not really expressing myself as well as I would like here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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