Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 18 minutes ago, Fry said: Have you ever tripped, @Cambium ? Yes, lots of times. No understanding there dude, lots of intuition, affirmation and emotion, but if you're getting understanding from psychedelics then you're doing it wrong I reckon. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Just now, Cambium said: if you're getting understanding from psychedelics then you're doing it wrong I reckon. I would say the exact opposite from my experiences. As someone who suffered with mental illness for a long time, psychedelics were the catalyst to understanding my own thoughts and feelings, and allowed me to view and respond to the world around me to the fullest depth of my spontaneous feelings rather than acting through anxiety-driven compulsion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Fry said: I would say the exact opposite from my experiences. As someone who suffered with mental illness for a long time, psychedelics were the catalyst to understanding my own thoughts and feelings, and allowed me to view and respond to the world around me to the fullest depth of my spontaneous feelings rather than acting through anxiety-driven compulsion. Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you can't gain personal understanding from psychedelics. But you do highlight my point, by articulating that understanding. I was trying to express that psychedelics will more often than not pose more questions that give answers. Mushrooms in particular express something similar, but unexplainable to me every time and this is kind of where I'm going with that point. Our language, due to our lack of knowledge, is insufficient to communicate the experience, or truth that has been experienced. It'll come, soon we will be able to understand what is happening, but until then, we will continue to fail at explaining what an ant is experiencing when it acts "intelligently" Edited July 2, 2018 by Cambium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Cambium said: Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you can't gain personal understanding from psychedelics. But you do highlight my point, by articulating that understanding. I was trying to express that psychedelics will more often than not pose more questions that give answers. Mushrooms in particular express something unexplainable to me every time and this is kind of where I'm going with that point. Fair enough. I did kind of realise that after I posted it Yes I definitely agree that psychedelics nearly always pose more questions than they give answers, but that is very different to saying they cannot afford understanding. Francis Crick supposedly discovered DNA thanks to his acid trips. I get where you're coming from with shrooms, whilst I've not done them yet I have done a fair amount of DMT which is structurally very similar and that always leaves me baffled. Never any direct understanding, but.... Sometimes the questions are more important than the answers. Edited July 2, 2018 by Fry 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 @Cambium The issue here you're working from a preconceived set of parameters regarding thinking, language and understanding. We fundamentally disagree about your construct. I can't change that, you won't or can't alter your perspective and this keeps going round and round (hence circular for those keeping score). I don't simply "know what I know" because I don't actually "know" anything. I perceive many things and attempt to do so from as many perspectives as my limited capabilities allow. My mind is open to new ideas and ways of thinking , but, as with all sentient beings I am limited by my perspectives and am always working to expand that. In this instance however I see no advancement of the discussion only repeating various positions in a rejigged questioning format. Perhaps someone else would be better for you to impose your view upon as I am not receptive to your line of thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Right, this is a discussion with many fronts now. @Fry yes, my comment regarding tripping and understanding didn't express the depth of what I think about these experiences. @Breezus I'm not sure how we got here. As I understood it we were discussing the neurology of other life and how we have insufficient language skills to explain what we mean when we say that mycelium is sentient, or ants are intelligent. I don't really know why we have ended up here with you thinking that I'm trying to impose my views on you, because I'm not. Your words are confusing and contradictory, such as this. Quote They can and do exist mutually exclusively . Something is only mutually exclusive if it cannot occur. I'm not trying to start a hooha, I'm just saying that what you write is confusing, so I may well be asking confusing things in return. But they're only confusing to you as you understand what you're on about. I'm not out to take anybody's life experiences away from them mate, I have just never got on well with "ah that's just the way it is", or "it's not my fault that you don't understand what I'm on about", well actually, no it isn't, and yes it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 1 minute ago, Cambium said: yes, my comment regarding tripping and understanding didn't express the depth of what I think about these experiences. Understandable dude. It's such a vast subject and not very easy to talk about because language isn't well suited to explaining these things. I even almost didn't write what I did for that very reason. I for one am now at least open to the idea that you cannot have understanding without language. I don't agree with it at all, but I shall ponder on it some more at least. After all, none of us really knows for anything for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 What started as a discussion on sentience became one on language and understanding as it evolved. You believe as I understand it , that understanding cannot exist without language. I disagree with that assertion for the reasons I and several others have given. Your continued discussion only reasserts your original proposal. Since that is your belief , I cannot dissuade you with mere words. I have no other examples to give you that will sate your personal requirement. Since the issue appears to be now that you require a certain type or amount of satisfactory evidence for your mind to reconcile these quandaries I suggest you seek them out as I have no more to offer. If by having nothing more to add you view that as a cop out I suggest you reexamine what your goal is in this conversation. Mine was to express my belief that language and understanding in my mind do not require one another in the context you propose. I believe I have stated that clearly and with examples that correlate. I hope you find whatever outcome you seek from this line of enquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 29 minutes ago, Fry said: Understandable dude. It's such a vast subject and not very easy to talk about because language isn't well suited to explaining these things. I even almost didn't write what I did for that very reason. I for one am now at least open to the idea that you cannot have understanding without language. I don't agree with it at all, but I shall ponder on it some more at least. After all, none of us really knows for anything for certain. Maybe making the point on such broad terms isn't helpful, but with regard to how it relates to the topic of describing and therefore understanding the neurology of non human life, language and how we use these existing human centred terms is critical to that understanding. Well get there and better folk than I are at the forefront of subjects like plant neurology, but at the moment, we fail. Stamets and Rogan had a great 20mins on this during the recent podcast. In general I think articulation and the use of clearly defined terms is a very important part of understanding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.o.i.n.t Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Cambium said: give me an example of how a human can gain understanding about something without some sort of language being used in the rationalisation Empathy? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Breezus said: What started as a discussion on sentience became one on language and understanding as it evolved. You believe as I understand it , that understanding cannot exist without language. I disagree with that assertion for the reasons I and several others have given. Ok, so to delve into what you are saying a little bit for the sake of understanding and civil discussion. It's still difficult for me to do that as you still haven't given an example, but when this understanding is happening, is it devoid of your inner monologue, is that inner monologue guiding you towards that understanding? Or is there nothing, just some sort of realisation outside of......well, you? I think that language and consciousness are linked in a evolutionary sense. There isn't consciousness without understanding and therefore without language. Please note the "I think", not "I think you should". Edited July 2, 2018 by Cambium 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fry Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 Hmm. The more I reflect upon your words, the more merit I find in them. You certainly have me thinking now @Cambium However, I've spent the day making BHO and I'm now so stoned I've struggled even to put this post together Good discussion. Going to find that podcast now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 1 minute ago, j.o.i.n.t said: Empathy? Maybe. I still think that our use of language, whater that may be clicks, whistles or moans, defines how we gain understanding from that emotion. The questions also arise... Do other animals feel/display empathy outside of survival in numbers? If they do, that might suggest that empathic understanding runs deeper than human consciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 @Cambium Dude, how many ways can I say I disagree with your assertion. The Examples are in this thread. Please don't tag me any further or quote me as we are not going to reach agreement here. By your standards pre conversant homo erectus was without consciousness because the frontal lobe was not developed enough for language . I simply do not accept that as I do not accept the blanket belief that non linguistic life is without consciousness . Forgive me if on this occasion I don't feel the need to justify that but, I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cursed Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) Does language and communication have to be aural and oral to communicate understanding? Like cam said, can't it be pictorial or physical and without word but still communicate something? Surely observational learning is a form of communication, just non verbal/aural communication? Is one person not communicating something to someone whether the communication is intentional or not? Do we not use terms like 'the language of dance' Does this then not support what @Cambium is saying, i.e. our language for describing these complexities is lacking? Or have I missed the point t entirely? Have I just made myself look stupid and should I shut up ? Edited July 2, 2018 by Cursed 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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