ratdog Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 then a sugar belief should be able to do the same without causing a shit storm, how can you just believe something if you`ve no evidence, just because someone tells you? obviously believing things that are true is better than being cynical, but it`s all about learning about the world isn`t it? haven`t watched it yet, will have a look though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Not sure if it was the same program (is this one a repeat?) but the thing that really blew my mind about placebos is that even if you know you have been given a placebo, it still works. Yeah that's where I realise I don't understand it . It makes sense to me that if you didn't know it might work but if you do know and it still works then I'm lost for any explanation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drgthumb Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) I Is there room for believe in ourselves as wonderful constructs capable of self healing in body and mind with out the need for an imaginary (or real for some) ethereal influence? This. Self belief is the way. Edited June 3, 2015 by drgthumb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
distracted Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 without causing a shit storm, how can you just believe something if you`ve no evidence, just because someone tells you? obviously believing things that are true is better than being cynical, but it`s all about learning about the world isn`t it? haven`t watched it yet, will have a look though That is my own position by default but they had people who knew that they were on a placebo that still showed chemical signs of improvement while on the placebo that vanished without the placebo... you'll have to watch it to get what I mean but it seems to reveal that the mind in itself can help in some situations if it is backed up with the placebo effect which comes back to the religion point, that too is a belief and the belief can maybe have a positive effect if you believe it to be so maybe? I remember when I used to be able to comfort my son when injured by giving it a quick kiss better... meaningless but real in calming. One of the studies was a fake acupunture session with one with the doctor showing no empathy and just getting on with the job and another where lots of interaction was added, the second group showed a lot better results even though neither group had any physical treatment Yeah that's where I realise I don't understand it . It makes sense to me that if you didn't know it might work but if you do know and it still works then I'm lost for any explanation It is counter-intuitive isn't it but shows how complicated we are as organisms This. Self belief is the way. I think you are right, I'm quite good at persuading myself I'm ill but maybe a better attitude is required 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drgthumb Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I have always liked the idea of, 'Whether you think you can or can't, you will or won't, you are or aren't, your right.' a quote from Henry Ford. The main point being whether you think..... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indicatoker420 Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 All my life I was confused about my sexuality, watching dirty videos of men on the internet and what not. But I went to church and after a few days I WAS FUCKING STRAIGHT. Thank you very much jesus, errr... I mean placebo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jacks lad Posted June 6, 2015 Share Posted June 6, 2015 i have no beliefs, i sometimes think i have but when i land i realise i look up to nothing, we are each in our own centre of the universe, do as you will with that space cos its sacred. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonisingt35r Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 (edited) im starting to believe in something, i went to a private school we went to church every day, god isnt a bad thing or religion i soppose its a nice story and to be honest id like to believe it its such a nice story, churches are nice places i think very historic and calm places and religious people ar generally nice forgiving sort of people. i do sort of prey sometimes when im in bed sort of asking for good things to happen. another thing that got me thinking about religion was watching a show on you tube shaycarl, hi is a morman really nice bloke and such a nice family, and they have such lovely morals and their just nice people i soppose. he has about 6 kids its so interesting progrwm, and i like the religious beliefs in the program, Edited August 10, 2015 by jonisingt35r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgee Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Positive mental attitude. I'm sure I've mentioned before that in my limited experience it always appears that people who are diagnosed with something terminal usually fall into 1 of two categories. The quitters. And the fighters. The fighters always outlive the quitters. The mind is a powerful thing, never underestimate a thought.. Like a fart it has the potential for surprising things! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonisingt35r Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 dont know why but i do keep being drawn twards religion i think i like the nice atmosphire there is in religion. there qre just no negatives just positive things, and the history is lovely there is just wo much history in religion which i find interesring. one thing i miss we used to live near a church and i miss the bells on a sunday that was nice, churchas are such calming places full of mystery i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
distracted Posted August 11, 2015 Author Share Posted August 11, 2015 negatives and positives in any religion is down to personal perspective. If I was trying to find a religion I'd go for one as close to secular humanism as possible and without any freeloaders living off the back of the religion... possibly an impossible goal! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~nobody~ Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 This has been my loose contention for a while. It was my uncle's take on it and it made a lot of sense to me. My only reservation about it (not that it makes me doubt the theory, just that it is imo a negative flipside) is that the aspects of it that genuinely work via the placebo effect then give 'proof' to the zealous that all of it is real and true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanedAndUnable Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 shit, 8 multiquotes! this may take some time.... Is anyone watching the Horizon doc on The Placebo effect? Watching it and the power seems to be belief.... and it is apparently very real and genuinely good for us, could religion (irregardless of if it is true or not) have the same effect? this is an interesting topic. belief in oneself is quite a powerful thing. just look at football players. form is almost all down to how they feel. religion is just a belief system like any other placebo, just that unlike a placebo, people wanting him to exist wont make him. im an atheist if you hadnt guessed derren brown did an interesting study a few years ago on the placebo effect. its well worth finding on YT. the mind is truly powerful! religion came about from humans wanting answers to questions they didnt know, superstition, corruption for power etc. i do believe religion has gone well past its usefulness now and causes far more harm than good Yup, I do believe Religion is largely Placebo, and as such it works very well indeed. Its time for Science to wake up to the power of the subconscious mind. Truly extraordinary. +1. if you want to find god take some ayahuasca your subconscious knows the answers dmt can provide far more answers than religion have you seen all the ted talks on it? they are using it now to treat severe addictions (alcohol, heroin etc) and it works really well. we fix ourselves. It strikes me that if a sugar pill can trick the mind into chemically changing the body then a sugar belief should be able to do the same, is this the basis of faith healing? Is there a real mechanism at work there? Are we as agnostics missing a trick? Is there room for believe in ourselves as wonderful constructs capable of self healing in body and mind with out the need for an imaginary (or real for some) ethereal influence? that depends. belief wont make you fly. it can heal some medical conditions though. for example depression causes physical stomach problems. belief in something can eliminate depression and fix your stomach. etc. another derren brown special showed how many fraudulent techniques faith healers in the usa to 'cure' people. usually stooges. Not sure if it was the same program (is this one a repeat?) but the thing that really blew my mind about placebos is that even if you know you have been given a placebo, it still works. once you know you have the power to do something you can do it. again, a lot of this is own to mental attitude. im starting to believe in something, i went to a private school we went to church every day, god isnt a bad thing or religion i soppose its a nice story and to be honest id like to believe it its such a nice story, churches are nice places i think very historic and calm places and religious people ar generally nice forgiving sort of people. i do sort of prey sometimes when im in bed sort of asking for good things to happen. another thing that got me thinking about religion was watching a show on you tube shaycarl, hi is a morman really nice bloke and such a nice family, and they have such lovely morals and their just nice people i soppose. he has about 6 kids its so interesting progrwm, and i like the religious beliefs in the program, are you thinking of the same thing as me? religion has been the cause of many wars, the main cause of persecution of homosexuals for 2000 years, the main cause for all current world terrorism. dont forget the catholic church actively covered up systemic child abuse. have a google of the hitchens video on mother theressa, its quite shocking. look at the sectarian violence in history too, oh and the erosion of womens rights for thousands of years. and dont forget the passages in the qu'ran where it states sex slaves are ok. which is being upheld by ISIS quoting passages before they rape 12 year old girls. they are allowed to do this as the girls are not muslim, this is in scripture in these books have a look at some of the many disturbing passages in the qu'ran. death for apostates (leaving islam or denouncing it) which is still law in some muslim countries. also look at the bible and all the passages where god kills people at a whim, for the most ridiculous of reasons. wipes out humanity TWICE and threatens non-christians with eternal hell. its not all rosey but a lot of church of england dont preach these bits, radical muslim clerics do preach the bad stuff, as do lunatics like the westbro church in the usa (god hates fags signs) Positive mental attitude.I'm sure I've mentioned before that in my limited experience it always appears that people who are diagnosed with something terminal usually fall into 1 of two categories.The quitters. And the fighters.The fighters always outlive the quitters.The mind is a powerful thing, never underestimate a thought..Like a fart it has the potential for surprising things! +1 man. obviously cant heal everything but its a bigger factor than many realise. the power of the mind! dont know why but i do keep being drawn twards religion i think i like the nice atmosphire there is in religion. there qre just no negatives just positive things, and the history is lovely there is just wo much history in religion which i find interesring. one thing i miss we used to live near a church and i miss the bells on a sunday that was nice, churchas are such calming places full of mystery i think depends which one. read my previous reply and im not even getting started on the bad stuff. if you want a social join a club of likeminded people. have a look how people who leave evangelical churches, mormons etc treat people who leave. (and have a look at the history of the mormons too, its absolutely ludicrous, founded by a convicted fraudster!) This has been my loose contention for a while. It was my uncle's take on it and it made a lot of sense to me. My only reservation about it (not that it makes me doubt the theory, just that it is imo a negative flipside) is that the aspects of it that genuinely work via the placebo effect then give 'proof' to the zealous that all of it is real and true. another interesting idea. i think the powers that be like to just dangle the carrot. in europe religion has pretty much run its course. this is why things like a caliphate and the islamisation movement are quite worrying. they want to take us back 1400 years! a base tenet of islam and christinaity is to NOT ASK QUESTIONS. doing so is bad. an ignorant public is much easier to control. just look at modern governments and propaganda, its the same thing. for me its quite interesting, the 3 main religions are based in the same area-ish, where people were generally poorly educated, illiterate and believing of superstition. why didnt jesus go to china at the time? they were far more advanced than the scruffy desert herders. why does god only show himself to 1 lunatic at a time? why not come out to a whole town? i would recommend to anyone a book called why religion ruins everything by christopher hitchens. the audio is on YT, he narrates himself. feel free to look stuff up as he is generally a very good researcher. anyway, enough of my ramblings, apologies if i have caused offence to anyone's views. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Theokoles Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 (edited) Interesting, just mentioned the placebo to my psychologist the other day. Recently the government had to release info about Prozac under the freedom of information Act, it showed in trials almost a 90% increase in mood with placebo. Its the act of going to see somebody a Doctor (the medical cloak of respectability) in reality its you taking charge, making change. Same goes for everything in life, i started the thread last week "welcome to the evolution of consciousness". Things like belief change and energy psychology modalities, the power of consciousness, biohacking your mind etc some good documentaries by Limpton..nothing to do with religion, more positive thinking, environmental stimuli and how we and our environment interact, biology and psychology combined. Edited August 17, 2015 by Theokoles 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonisingt35r Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) i think religion is a very positive rhing very positive i dont know much about religion im sure ive never heard a negative thing about it i think, i think christaknoty has modenised well unlike other faiths, who are still in the stone age i think, i just wish they could be nicer, id love to go to church i did when i was at school, churches are such nice peaciful places. with nice people going to them, i would like to rhink there is a god, it such a nice story i just hope its true ot wou'd be nice if it was Edited August 22, 2015 by jonisingt35r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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