sam-i-am Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) the trouble with supporting control of drugs is that you have to have some trust in the controllers. The state clearly has no understanding of the drugs they control - drug law is a complete nonsense at the moment and governments are driven by disinformation campaigns in the papers, and by their snuggly relationships with pharmaceutical companies. I can't support control of drugs (other than strong poisons that no-one would want to take) by the UK government for that reason. However I do trust pharmaceutical companies and chemists to titrate and supply drugs accurately. Now you'll want to know whether I am one of those selfish heroin users who apparently allow personal needs to overwhelm their objectivity on the matter. I have never used heroin but my oldest friend was a lifelong addict. He had a high tolerance so needed large doses. Of course with dealer smack you have no idea of the strength. He miscalculated one night. Maybe it was cut with something but the postmortem revealed only smack and alcohol. Many heroin addicts die that way, ie unnecessarily and because of a direct result of prohibition. No amount of prohibition would have saved him (unless you believe in the crazed fantasy held by current governments that the illegal drug market can be completely eradicated by policing prohibition). Prohibition didn't even begin to prevent him from getting smack, but it did ensure that sooner or later it would kill him. I personally know of quite a few people who've left this World this way, my sister in law being one of them. There was a glut of them not long after the yanks went into Afghanistan, when the taliban were in charge, heroin was unIslamic and production was down and purity low. After the war there was lots of super strong stuff about with predictable tragic consequences Edited May 7, 2014 by sam-i-am 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) Sorry to hear that Sam. I've thought about it a lot, and though of course the drug killed him I can't blame it - it is a most useful drug and has saved many from pain and misery. One could blame the dealer, but whilst I find it hard to understand the mindset I can see that once prices are driven sky high by prohibition 'entrepreneurs' are going to see a way to make money. No, more to blame is the wilful ignorance of the misguided public and the corrupt government who between them maintain a stupid and damaging law. There is no excuse for seeing heroin as a scary 'killer drug'; so is paracetamol and no-one thinks that should be banned. Poorly titrated dealer heroin killed him, sold to him by an unprincipled profiteer, and prohibition was the underlying cause of that. It is in the hands of government to change this law and to stop unnecessary deaths. eta of course he was the one who took the drug, he bears the main responsibility, should have put that. It is hard to think clearly about even though it was ten years ago now, maybe I shouldn't have written about it, it doesn't add much to the argument and wasn't meant as some kind of trump card, i hate that shit. Edited May 7, 2014 by Ishmael 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cursed Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 You do not think that withdraws are harmful to your body then? And that is just half my point. Irreperable damage can come in the forms of the cost to the lives of loved ones and those closest to the case. Some people truly believe that cannabis is harmful Talking about cannabis alone is an easier pill to swallow but it doesn't detract from the issue that all drug law is ineffectual and needs to be reformed asap, that people need to be educated about so-called 'hard' drugs and that prohibition is an unmitigated disaster 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam-i-am Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) I am not here to discuss the harms or benefits of H. I am here however to talk about Cannabis and its laws being reformed. And I still think that trying to throw it in the same catagory with other drugs like H or meth or whatever is detrimental to that specific cause. Our freedom would be hollow whilst our brothers and sisters in other minority drug communities were still in chains. It's not about drugs, it's about people. Edited May 7, 2014 by sam-i-am 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JahRy Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 @@sam-i-am Sorry to hear about your experiences with heroin. I think you're spot on in regards to how drugs, especially heroin, should be regulated as well. Logically only to people who have an existing habit/dependence, and have been through some kind process, like becoming able to drive as you mentioned. As @@Arnold Layne said, if a person wants to take an opiate, they will get their hands on one. On the streets, it will certainly not be a pure substance though. As Arnold also described his personal withdrawal symptoms from prescribed opiates, it's not hard to imagine the other damaging effects that could impact a street opiate user. @ @the_pimp I'm with you on how cannabis stands out from everything else; it is a healing plant with virtues that could extend even as far as curing cancer (we don't know yet, because it's still a 'drug'). Heroin, cocaine, valium and MDMA are not living things, and certainly don't cure cancer. (Tobacco deserves a special a mention, for somehow managing to be both legal and cancer causing). So the fact that cannabis is still identified and disregarded worldwide as being a harmful drug, just like them, is very frustrating. However, at the same time, people do have genuine use for other illegal drugs. But what needs to be done first is to separate cannabis from its current associations, and incorporate its uses and identity as a plant, which has medicinal value, into society. Not only because many drug user's problems can be resolved by consistent access to high quality cannabis, but because it is already being deemed socially acceptable by the people; although stigmatised heavily by laws. It can also be used in many medical situations as a treatment, instead of the current reliance on a pharmaceutical industry who's 'medicine' gives people addictions and other unwanted side effects. But obviously, there is a need to recognise and regulate the forms of cannabis that can also be used as a strong inebriant, a mild anaesthetic, a stimulant, a hallucinogenic, or a sedative. I've definitely missed some other uses as well but... @@Bones de WeedZard Like your statement about the stigma and poor quality and price; I think the remaining citizens who cannot resolve their drug problems by using cannabis should be prescribed with whichever substance they need, in its cleanest and safest form, as recommended by a medical professional. Instead of having to steal from their own communities to pay for impure, yet still highly addictive drugs that fund perpetual criminal activity. That way, people who are unfortunate enough to have existing drug problems can be helped, and the use of hard drugs will decrease. The rate of cannabis use will not increase, because everybody already smokes weed. We just can't get any. That's why drug problems begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wigwag Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 erm heroin and cocaine most definately are living things they are derived from plants as well. Poppies and coca leaves, and if it wasn't for prohibition then arguably we would be able to get them in their bulky and raw state..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JahRy Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 erm heroin and cocaine most definately are living things they are derived from plants as well. Poppies and coca leaves, and if it wasn't for prohibition then arguably we would be able to get them in their bulky and raw state..... My point is that cannabis flowers, and also cannabinoids in general, do not have to be refined in order to be used. Heroin and cocaine have to undergo various refinement processes and are mixed with other substances/agents. Therefore they are not living things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronic1 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 My point is that cannabis flowers, and also cannabinoids in general, do not have to be refined in order to be used. Heroin and cocaine have to undergo various refinement processes and are mixed with other substances/agents. Therefore they are not living things. Opium and Coca leaves are not refined. So they are "living things". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 poppy tea isn't refined and it's every bit as addictive as heroin naturalistic fallacy going on here - nature's a good thing but not everything natural is good for you. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JahRy Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Opium and Coca leaves are not refined. So they are "living things". Yes but the opium poppy and coca leaves themselves are not psychoactive substances. Cocaine and heroin are refined substances derived from living things, and that's what I have been talking about this whole time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shogun Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Yes but the opium poppy and coca leaves themselves are not psychoactive substances. Cocaine and heroin are refined substances derived from living things, and that's what I have been talking about this whole time... you can get high as a kite from both opium poppys and cocoa leaves. couple of storys in the papers recently about folk dying in the uk from tea made from opium poppys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JahRy Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) you can get high as a kite from both opium poppys and cocoa leaves. couple of storys in the papers recently about folk dying in the uk from tea made from opium poppys. Fair enough . But just to get things straight, I was referring strictly to heroin and cocaine as bought from a street dealer. In comparison to a cannabis flower, and in general, those nasty things are not living or natural. Edited May 7, 2014 by JahRy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam-i-am Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 naturalistic fallacy going on here - nature's a good thing but not everything natural is good for you. Maybe, but I was lucky enough to be able to try raw coca leaves once and they are fucking lush, absolutely wonderful they were, but I cannot stand cocaine. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chronic1 Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Yes but the opium poppy and coca leaves themselves are not psychoactive substances. Cocaine and heroin are refined substances derived from living things, and that's what I have been talking about this whole time... Believe me you can get proper hammered of the old opium poppy, Tea anyone ? Chewing Coca leaves also gets you hammered ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JahRy Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 Maybe, but I was lucky enough to be able to try raw coca leaves once and they are fucking lush, absolutely wonderful they were, but I cannot stand cocaine. Amen. Believe me you can get proper hammered of the old opium poppy, Tea anyone ? Chewing Coca leaves also gets you hammered ! tea sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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