Guest luang Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) although HMRC have said they don't actively go round looking for home growers. That fact alone pretty much cancels out the rest of your arguement. Do you have any examples of doors being kicked in, lives and careers ruined for percy distilling? If you think the current situation is bad, you really do not want a landscape where HMRC are chasing you, rather than the police. Yeh, It would be so much worse not having your door kicked in & the HMRC not actively going around looking for your percy grow. Edited January 8, 2014 by luang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyPage Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Incidentally anyone who grows their own tobacco is also required to pay duty, although HMRC have said they don't actively go round looking for home growers.That fact alone pretty much cancels out the rest of your arguement. Please quote properly if you want to discuss The reason HMRC don't AT PRESENT go around looking for home tobacco growers, is because there's hardly a big UK home grown tobacco scene which is losing them money. If that were to change, they'd be onto it like a shot. Do you have any examples of doors being kicked in, lives and careers ruined for percy distilling? I didn't say people *had* been done for personal distilling. Currently HMRC unofficially tolerate it. They were completely caught on the hop when people started selling stills and distilling equipment in the UK (they thought they had spread enough FUD to stop people trying). By the time they realised that almost every homebrew shop sells stills, it was too late. They decided to quietly ignore it, as trying to pursue home distillers would publicise the fact it's so fucking easy. Instead they keep a very keen eye out for commercial operations. If you think the current situation is bad, you really do not want a landscape where HMRC are chasing you, rather than the police.Yeh, It would be so much worse not having your door kicked in & the HMRC not actively going around looking for your percy grow. There speaks someone who has absolutely no idea how powerful HMRC are. Tax cases aren't criminal, so they only have to say "we think Mr X is fiddling his taxes" at which point, poor Mr X has to prove he isn't. Speaking as a former Mr X who spent £5,000 in the 90s to "prove" I wasn't fiddling my taxes, I can tell you it isn't fun. Oh, that £5,000. Even if they admit (after 4 years in my case) they were wrong, you can't claim costs. Oh, and they can go back forever. I was asked for bank statements from my teens. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest luang Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) ^^Exactly, it's all conjecture and empty doom mongering, you can't actually provide any real world examples via alcohol/tobacco to backup your argument. How many countries that currently allow some percy growing are taxing those percy growers? HMRC are already losing money to home brewers, wine makers etc, do we see doors being kicked in ? No we don't, we don't even see many busts for small time duty free tobacco selling,I know a few guys that have been doing this for many years & not had one bit of hassle, HMRC are not really interested. I can't say the same for those that sell a bit of weed. Edited January 8, 2014 by luang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyPage Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 ^^Exactly it's all conjecture and empty doom mongering, you can't actually provide any examples via alcohol/tobacco to backup your argument. How many countries that currently allow some percy growing are taxing those percy growers? HMRC are already losing money to home brewers, wine makers etc, do we see doors being kicked in ? No we don't, we don't even see many busts for small time duty free tobacco selling,I know a few guys that have been doing this for many years & not had one bit of hassle, HMRC are not really interested. I can't say the same for those that sell a bit of weed. Sigh. There is no duty payable on beer/wine brewed for personal consumption. So there is no mechanism for HMRC to "kick doors down". However, be aware that if they think you are *selling* it, you can be certain of a little visit. The situation with home grown tobacco, and home distilling is different. Both these are duty-payable. However, if HMRC were to try and collect the duty it would cost them more than they would recover. So they quietly ignore it. I guess that it would need to account for more than 10% of the market before it would start to become financially viable. Cannabis, however, is a different situation : 1) There is a very large home grown market 2) There's every chance that if cannabis were taxed the same as alcohol and tobacco, then the home grown market will simply continue, and they will not raise the expected revenue. At which point they *will* start cracking down on home growing. Incidentally, I never claimed HMRC WERE busting percy tobacco growers, so I don't have to provide evidence of anything. I said they COULD. To be honest, I can't see cannabis being "legalised" in the same way as the US. The UK has proved many times how willing it is to swim against the tide of social change. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughie Green Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 It's not really, still needs to be grown and sold, they have tried this in some states in the usa and it doesn't solve anything, would still mean we need to buy illegally and from a black market, still means no quality regulation and no medicinal advances, How does it "need" to be grown and sold under decriminalisation?, if you can grow your own with no restrictions or interference from the state why would anyone need to buy or sell, they have not tried this in the United States individual states have voted on the form of cannabis law they wish to have in their own state but it remains illegal at federal level so cannabis is only partially decriminalised in some places in the US not the whole country, you seem to be unable to understand that under decriminalisation you wouldn't be buying illegally and there wouldn't be a black market because possession is decriminalised, if you grow your own you regulate the quality of your own cannabis and quality regulation would only be a problem if you were buying cannabis from someone else and as I say practically nobody would be buying when you are able to grow your own unmolested, how would there be no medical advances if the prohibition that currently prevents investigation of cannabis as medicine by individuals or companies due to the illegality of possession is removed? seems to me some people wilfully misunderstand what decriminalisation actually means or entails just to continue pumping out a legalisation fantasy that would have more restrictions not less and is the least likely outcome which none of the European countries have done opting instead for various degrees of decriminalisation, apparently reality and precedent have no bearing on the discussion and the situation in the EU countries is completely irrelevant to what is possible here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest luang Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Sigh. You should go for nap if feeling tired Jimmy. There is no duty payable on beer/wine brewed for personal consumption. So there is no mechanism for HMRC to "kick doors down". The situation with home grown tobacco, and home distilling is different. Both these are duty-payable. However, if HMRC were to try and collect the duty it would cost them more than they would recover. So they quietly ignore it. Exactly right, so why would you think they would tax cannabis grown for personal consumption? Cannabis, however, is a different situation : 1) There is a very large home grown market Bollocks, It might seem that way being on this forum, but there is way more people making their own beer and wine. 2) There's every chance that if cannabis were taxed the same as alcohol and tobacco, then the home grown market will simply continue, and they will not raise the expected revenue. At which point they *will* start cracking down on home growing. Conjecture and/or empty prophetic doom mongering, you can't actually provide any real world examples via alcohol/tobacco to backup your argument. Incidentally, I never claimed HMRC WERE busting percy tobacco growers, so I don't have to provide evidence of anything. I said they COULD. Incidentally, I never claimed you claimed HMRC WERE busting percy tobacco growers. However you did claim that HMRC would tax percy growers, so I asked you for evidence of this via the other 'currently legal' recreational drugs that HMRC do tax, alcohol/tobacco, so far you have provided zero real world examples/evidence the HMRC would tax percy growers, I have also asked you how many countries that currently allow some percy growing are taxing those percy growers?, so far you have provided absolutely nothing in the way of indicative evidence. ------------------------------ Hughie might have repped you but he can't provide any examples of this either, as per usual he wilfully ignores the real facts. Edited January 8, 2014 by luang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyPage Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Any decision to tax will be taken by the government of the day. Not HMRC, who will just collect the tax. The reason I suspect it will be taxed, is that will be the carrot any legalising government will offer as a sop to the prohibitionists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*DJ* Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) i wouldnt let the guvenment get anywhere near cannabis, because shit like this happens! fact! http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=335785 dj.... eta... writing, i forgot to write! Edited January 8, 2014 by *DJ* 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something_witty Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 How does it "need" to be grown and sold under decriminalisation?, if you can grow your own with no restrictions or interference from the state why would anyone need to buy or sell, they have not tried this in the United States individual states have voted on the form of cannabis law they wish to have in their own state but it remains illegal at federal level so cannabis is only partially decriminalised in some places in the US not the whole country, you seem to be unable to understand that under decriminalisation you wouldn't be buying illegally and there wouldn't be a black market because possession is decriminalised, if you grow your own you regulate the quality of your own cannabis and quality regulation would only be a problem if you were buying cannabis from someone else and as I say practically nobody would be buying when you are able to grow your own unmolested, how would there be no medical advances if the prohibition that currently prevents investigation of cannabis as medicine by individuals or companies due to the illegality of possession is removed? seems to me some people wilfully misunderstand what decriminalisation actually means or entails just to continue pumping out a legalisation fantasy that would have more restrictions not less and is the least likely outcome which none of the European countries have done opting instead for various degrees of decriminalisation, apparently reality and precedent have no bearing on the discussion and the situation in the EU countries is completely irrelevant to what is possible here. And for all those who can't grow? due to space, timing restrictions, age, ability, or just not wanting to grow your own, what would they do? how could you market a cbd drug or cure if the sale was still illegal? I'm pretty sure even if they allowed growing there would still be thousands of people buying. simply saying "ok possession of marijuana is no longer illegal" isn't going to stop the sale, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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