science vs religion

[strawberry]

... our society was built partially by scientists but they weren't automatically devoid of a religion, it is a fair bet that all the greats and lesser scientists that have helped forge the present were religious to a degree, Darwin himself studied theology at cambridge, Newton was an obsessed theologian, Pasteur a creationalist, the list can easily be populated further using google. This idea that scientific thinking excludes a belief is modern and a wild generalisation

In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. Einstein 1968

Towards the end of the 19th Century many emminent British scientists such William Crookes, Lord Rayleigh et al were members of The Society of Psychical Research. (As were psychologists such as Jung and Richard Wiseman. ) Crookes in particular believed in psychic phenomena until his death. Others such as Alfred Russel Wallace were openly vocal in support of psychic phenomena. And yet few scientists are in support of psychic spiritualism these days....

As I said in another thread, I think that scientists' theological views start at the point their scientific views stop. Francis Collins (see OP) I would argue is an administrator rather than a scientist these days, but he probably has one of the more profound knowledges of genes. He choses to append the idea of a god at the limit of his scientific knowledge. I don't see a problem with his scientific work on the human genome project as everything is peer reviewed. But, he is director of the (US) National Institutes of Health and is responsible for allocating funding of biomedical research. What happens if his choice of funding recipients is altered by his religious views? Currently his views on topics such as stem cell research appear to be made on a scientific basis. But there are differences between his publically stated views under Obama and his views under Bush. Anyway, I'm moving onto ethics vs science....

My personal interest surrounds the various interpretations of quantum mechanics. Bohr, Einstein, Dirac, Heisenberg, Pauli and Schrodinger had some very public arguments about the need for quantum mechanics to explain itself. (Search for "Bohr Einstein debate" and "1927 Solvay Conference" to get started.)

Ultimately I am left with Dirac's comments as told by Heisenberg:

I cannot understand why we idle discussing religion. If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination. It is quite understandable why primitive people, who were so much more exposed to the overpowering forces of nature than we are today, should have personified these forces in fear and trembling. But nowadays, when we understand so many natural processes, we have no need for such solutions. I can't for the life of me see how the postulate of an Almighty God helps us in any way. What I do see is that this assumption leads to such unproductive questions as why God allows so much misery and injustice, the exploitation of the poor by the rich and all the other horrors He might have prevented. If religion is still being taught, it is by no means because its ideas still convince us, but simply because some of us want to keep the lower classes quiet. Quiet people are much easier to govern than clamorous and dissatisfied ones. They are also much easier to exploit. Religion is a kind of opium that allows a nation to lull itself into wishful dreams and so forget the injustices that are being perpetrated against the people. Hence the close alliance between those two great political forces, the State and the Church. Both need the illusion that a kindly God rewards—in heaven if not on earth—all those who have not risen up against injustice, who have done their duty quietly and uncomplainingly. That is precisely why the honest assertion that God is a mere product of the human imagination is branded as the worst of all mortal sins.

[Guest weirdofmouth]

what the fuck did Heisenberg know? i mean he wasn't certain of anything was he?

[northwest]

Amen to that.

eta - not the joke, that's unforgivable.

Edited May 4, 2011 by northwest

[Guest Zeah]

You're totally lost in your own nonsense. Catholic?

First of all 'mental illness' probably was fishing for a reaction somewhat, so sorry for that, bad choice of words. However.... I didn't 'accuse others of things like mental illness, just because they have a faith'. What I said was that I think people that belong to groups based around religious notions aren't... let's say, completely of sound mind. I actually said I thought everyone acted on faith, it was the first thing I said.

I stick to that though, mooslems, catholics, scientologists, spaghetti worshippers etc, whatever. All a bit nuts.

You are so insulting.

Hi billious, religious belief may be a personal choice but unfortunately it is a bad one. Its not really a choice for most people anyway as they were indoctrinated as children, thats hardly a choice ! Beliefs lead to behaviour as I demonstrated earlier with the stem cell research example and as we see every day with religious fanatics blowing themselves up. So beliefs are not something you should get at the pic 'n mix counter as they really have an affect on your worldview. They can't be considered in isolation to human behaviour. If someone believes in the afterlife it may have a huge impact on their general behaviour. Its a myth that beliefs are innocuous, they shape our representation of the world and our place in it and our relationships with it and other people.

Well said Troy. Losing religion in the head isn't that easy (especially if you do drugs), but

coming out at the other end is refreshing to say the least

[~nobody~]

hey Arnold, you're trying too hard with these people

all they need is a week alone in a cave in the desert

they'll all find God

That's a pretty big assertion to make, don't you think?

what the fuck did Heisenberg know? i mean he wasn't certain of anything was he?

[Guest weirdofmouth]

sorry i'm just winding you people up for a holy laugh

you're never going to convince each other

an anecdote...

once when i lived in east London i was being pestered by various cults

so i got them all together

and shut them in a room

really

i invited them to all come back at the same time

th Revolutionary Communist Party of something

the Children of God

the local Pentecostalist pastor

and the Moonies I think

tell you what, they wouldnt even speak to each other

it was hysterical

they just all wanted me, the victim

[Sylar]

Religion - you're in a cave, canna only grows outside, no hybrids. You hope to get the seeds before the birds do.

Science - you're here online, growing canna indoors, 1000s of hybrids to choose from. The postie brings your seeds.

you suggest that science has created the ability to surf the net, have electricity, a postal service whereas religion has not been able to raise us as a species beyond cave dwellers? It's twaddle, our society was built partially by scientists but they weren't automatically devoid of a religion, it is a fair bet that all the greats and lesser scientists that have helped forge the present were religious to a degree, Darwin himself studied theology at cambridge, Newton was an obsessed theologian, Pasteur a creationalist, the list can easily be populated further using google. This idea that scientific thinking excludes a belief is modern and a wild generalisation

In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. Einstein 1968

Your correct, they may not have been devoid of a religion, but the science they discovered is.

Which is the whole point, science is based upon decipline and constant peer review, theorys developded, independantly replicated and tested to destruction being replaced when found wanting. The questioning never stops.

With religion your expected to take "whatever flavour that religion is pushing" at face value, no proof is offered, to even consider asking for it makes you a non beliver, heritic or worse

I`am sticking with science thanks.

[northwest]

You are so insulting.

I just don't suffer fools gladly and I bore of groupthink phony tolerance easily, it's not that same thing.

[northwest]

They are all nuts though. I fully sympathize with all the victims of cult indoctrination in it's many forms, but that doesn't stop them being a bit nuts.

All I said was they shouldn't be put in positions of responsibility. And I prefer they weren't. If that makes me a bigot, well, forgive me

India is a good place to go and consider the social benefits of religion, especially the south, you an see Christian, Muslims, Hindus, Jainists, Buddhists and almost infinite variety of holymen for hire battle it out in a multi millenium long exploitation of the desperate. They build some great temples. Unfortunately, usually at the expense of things like sewers.

[bill cooper]

hey Arnold, you're trying too hard with these people

all they need is a week alone in a cave in the desert

they'll all find God

thats right a week alone in the desert and u start losing your mind you might find god when your starting to get delusional well put

[sam-i-am]

I just don't suffer fools gladly

I seem to remember someone (possibly Stewert Lee) observing that this phrase can only be applied to dead people and actually means "cantankerous old twat"

[Arnold Layne]

thats right a week alone in the desert and u start losing your mind you might find god when your starting to get delusional well put

Are you for real?

I mean to say, what of all that culture pre- the scientific dawn?

What of all that Arabic architecture, music, poetry, and downright civilisation?

The idea that all peoples living in the deserts of Africa or Asia before the dawn of your great scientific age are deluded or fools is absurd in the extreme.

Science is good, but it is far from perfect. Let's not blinker ourselves like that, its misleading.

Find God? Nope, I never did. He just barged on in and sat down, then she re-ordered my life, and then it taught me such love as never did I taste before.

Who needs a desert?

[troy]

Hi Troy, we will have to agree to disagree on this, I'm too entrenched in my own attitude to be open minded to yours, I will tolerate any doctrine until it is shoved in my face or offends my moral position. Pat Condell comes across to me as generalising bigot, no better than a religious fundamentalist in his position of misunderstanding and rigidity, but that's his job I suppose

I'll bow out out of your thread now, but it's good to see it hasn't descended into a shitstorm, thought it was trolling for one when I first saw the title, glad I was wrong

cheers mate. thanks for your input

[northwest]

I just don't suffer fools gladly

I seem to remember someone (possibly Stewert Lee) observing that this phrase can only be applied to dead people and actually means "cantankerous old twat"

To me it means, I don't suffer fools gladly. I could just never express an opinion that might offend anyone, would you like that better? Probably.

Don't think it's Lee though, I've seen him 4 times and I don't remember that, and he's only a few albeit quite good routines He'd agree with me though. I think you just wanted to call me a twat without actually attributing it to yourself. Which is a bit twatty, really.

[bill cooper]

thats right a week alone in the desert and u start losing your mind you might find god when your starting to get delusional well put

Are you for real?

I mean to say, what of all that culture pre- the scientific dawn?

What of all that Arabic architecture, music, poetry, and downright civilisation?

The idea that all peoples living in the deserts of Africa or Asia before the dawn of your great scientific age are deluded or fools is absurd in the extreme.

Science is good, but it is far from perfect. Let's not blinker ourselves like that, its misleading.

Find God? Nope, I never did. He just barged on in and sat down, then she re-ordered my life, and then it taught me such love as never did I taste before.

Who needs a desert?

im not saying ther fools arnold my point was i was answering his quote about being in a cave in the desert for a week and u would soon find god which he was making on the religious side of the debate which i found crazy. as for the things u listed above from the arabs yes they had religion but i dont think these accheivements came about because of religion