The Atheism Thread

[Boojum]

I think until you know for sure (which I don't think anyone can at the moment, because even those who claim to have had religious revelations have to accept the possibility that it's merely some form of hallucination) the possibility can only ever be 50/50. Either God exists or it doesn't. Nothing that has happened thus far in human history can either prove or disprove it. So it can only ever be a coin toss, a 50/50 chance. In fact not only can you not know at the moment, from the available evidence, if God exists or not, one can argue that you can never know, even if God reveals itself to you you can never know if it's real or the product of your own mind. But even if we can never know (while alive), that has no bearing on whether or not God actually does exist. It either does or it doesn't. Neither is any more probable or improbable than the other, so it's a fifty fifty.

[Guest roger]

I think until you know for sure (which I don't think anyone can at the moment, because even those who claim to have had religious revelations have to accept the possibility that it's merely some form of hallucination) the possibility can only ever be 50/50. Either God exists or it doesn't. Nothing that has happened thus far in human history can either prove or disprove it. So it can only ever be a coin toss, a 50/50 chance. In fact not only can you not know at the moment, from the available evidence, if God exists or not, one can argue that you can never know, even if God reveals itself to you you can never know if it's real or the product of your own mind. But even if we can never know (while alive), that has no bearing on whether or not God actually does exist. It either does or it doesn't. Neither is any more probable or improbable than the other, so it's a fifty fifty.

before we get going, are there any world religions that you think have the right answer?

[Boojum]

Can't comment on every single religion in the world cos I don't know enough about all of them, there are many, many belief systems out there. But I'd say that there's no major organised religion that has the right answer, simply because they are all a product of man (or men). They are the words of men, not the Word of God. Not only do they not have the right answer, one gets the feeling that most of them don't even have the right question.

[Guest roger]

Can't comment on every single religion in the world cos I don't know enough about all of them, there are many, many belief systems out there. But I'd say that there's no major organised religion that has the right answer, simply because they are all a product of man (or men). They are the words of men, not the Word of God. Not only do they not have the right answer, one gets the feeling that most of them don't even have the right question.

can man even have an accurate conception of 'god'?

[Boojum]

I doubt it. A chimpanzee can't conceive of humanity, can't understand our motivations, our abilities, our intelligence. I'd say that if there is a God it's considerably more advanced in comparison with us than we are in comparison with chimpanzees. I think a human being who believes it has the slightest understanding of God is labouring under a staggering amount of hubris. And the very idea that man was created in Gods image is frankly laughable. The God of organised religion was, however, created in mans image.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Boojum

[Guest roger]

I think a human being who believes it has the slightest understanding of God is labouring under a staggering amount of hubris. And the very idea that man was created in Gods image is frankly laughable.

given my sig, this gives me pause for thought. what about involvement in human affairs? yet, is it possible that 'god' is just a linguistic trick?

[tsk]

The closest I have ever got to it is this, some religions describe god as all powerful, everywhere and knowing everything. This is theoritically possible at the very point of big bang, but as soon as time begins its logic breaks down.

edit for stoner spelling mistakes and just being wrecked

time is a relative experience to humans, but to an omnipotent, omnipresent god i dont spose that would matter... how do you imagine a gnat fly comprehends you? crude example, but your so far more complex in some respects as to render you incomprehensible as a total being in the gnat flys realm of existence.

Yes, when I properly understood how religion, and especially its scriptures treat women, I realised no god would ever be so one sided, how totally obsurd, and with that the road to there is no god really opened up.

classic. the bird put you on to the book and its the religious treatments of woman that really sold you on god dont exist. shes no called eve is she adam?

when you say religion, do you mean ALL of them, of just Christianity?

you can never know if it's real or the product of your own mind.

you mean theres a difference?

[Guest roger]

classic. the bird put you on to the book and its the religious treatments of woman that really sold you on god dont exist. shes no called eve is she adam?

you anti-snake, offering yer sick fruit

[Boojum]

given my sig, this gives me pause for thought. what about involvement in human affairs? yet, is it possible that 'god' is just a linguistic trick?

Given the size of the universe I seriously doubt any deity could really give a toss about humanity any more than a human could give a toss about individual bacteria. I doubt we're any more important in the greater universal scheme. Not sure what you mean about linguistic trick. I guess the word God means many things to many people, but I think at its very root it refers to a creator entity. But perhaps God isn't the thing that created the universe, perhaps God is the universe. It's possible. No more or less outlandish than any other imagining of what God may be. Or maybe there isn't one. I guess that's my own brand of agnosticism, anything is possible.

Edited July 29, 2008 by Boojum

[Guest roger]

perhaps God is the universe. It's possible. No more or less outlandish than any other imagining of what God may be.

my pet theory is that god evolved to live at the end of time/ edge of dimensions and uses retrocausality to act via chaos...

by linguistic trick, I mean using the device of 'god', being unknowable as an explication for reality, that cannot be disproved.

Edited July 29, 2008 by roger

[Boojum]

The flipside argument is true as well, though - if God cannot be disproved, neither can it be proved. And if one wishes to go there, to get into that realm of philosophy then one can argue that nothing can be proved or disproved, that in fact reality itself is an illusion, that all that exists are consensual reality and personal reality, both of which are subjective, and that there is no such thing as objective reality. That all our perceptions, all our senses, all we experience are merely products of our own minds and as such are unreliable.

[Guest roger]

o get into that realm of philosophy then one can argue that nothing can be proved or disproved, that in fact reality itself is an illusion, that all that exists are consensual reality and personal reality, both of which are subjective, and that there is no such thing as objective reality. That all our perceptions, all our senses, all we experience are merely products of our own minds and as such are unreliable.

if that were true we should be able to discern all there is to know about the universe & god from a priori knowledge...

Edited July 29, 2008 by roger

[Guest grandad]

i know for sure i've never seen any god or any sign one exists, thats enough for me, i've never see a fairy or a goblin or a witch on a broomstick. you can fool some of the people some of the time, you can fool most of the people all the time.

i cant listen to johny cash no more since the hypocrite tried get himself into heaven.

[Aad]

I picked agnostic as well,you never know,just spreading my bets.

From an emotional point of view,as a weak creature that doesn't want to die,i sometimes believe/hope in the interconnectedness of all things.I personally believe religion holds such a powerful attraction to many people because of the promise that you won't end with death and you can live happily(or not,as the case may be ) ever after.

The "scientific,realistic" part of me believes we are probably just a collection of memories/routines stored in the little grey cells.

I do think organised religion is just there for human powerplays and has little to do with the "divine".

By far the most atrocities in history were commited in name of a god of some misguided zealots.

I do not think i will get a definitive answer without having to die,so i truly hope i can get back to you on this!

Grtz. Aad

Edited July 29, 2008 by Aad

[Father McPot]

Agnostic best describes my view I think.

The Church of Cosmic Uncertainty

Spot on.

Although an Agnostic, I really love what Voltaire came out with: "God created man in his image, and man returned the compliment."

perhaps God is the universe. It's possible. No more or less outlandish than any other imagining of what God may be.

That's Pantheism to a T (I'm think).

Edited July 29, 2008 by Father McPot