Heaven Or Hell?

[Arnold Layne]

however, can you explain this grace stuff a little more, it seems from what you've posted that god is going to forgive only those who allow god into them regardless of past deeds which again sounds like a pre requisite to forgivness.

Yes, but given the Theocentric nature of New Testament and Christian thought, even when an individual "allows god into them" (not, by the way, a phrase I would use, its open to serious mis-interpretation), that itself is the result of Divine grace. In Protestant thought "salvation" is "By grace alone, to the glory of God alone" - there is no merit or earning or such in view. Such are anathema to the philosphy that grew out of the Reformation.

I feel I should make some things clear here. I am not an advocate of Christianity, or any other form of religion. Far from!

It is true I have a training in Protestant Theology etc, but that is not to say I agree with it, or believe it entirely. I don't. I just post in threads like this to offer answers to attacks, and to show that the popular conception of Christian theology is often totally at odds with the reality. And to answer real questions where I can

Plus, I'm trained in it, Theological debate is in the blood as it were.

Just don't assume that what you read..... is me! :fear:

[delta-green]

Yes, but given the Theocentric nature of New Testament and Christian thought, even when an individual "allows god into them" (not, by the way, a phrase I would use, its open to serious mis-interpretation), that itself is the result of Divine grace. In Protestant thought "salvation" is "By grace alone, to the glory of God alone" - there is no merit or earning or such in view. Such are anathema to the philosphy that grew out of the Reformation.

its still not clear to me how 'by gods grace alone' we achieve salvation. does this mean that god judges you then if youve not been too bad you are saved or does this mean that god judges you and if you've not been too bad and want redemption then you are saved? or does it mean something else? i just want to clear this up as it sounds to me like another way of saying god will forgive you but only if you want it, as i was taught.

a point i failed to pick up on earlier was christs death on the cross, i dont believe he died for our sins at all, i believe that if he existed he died because he was a potential threat to roman authority and nothing more. im also of the opinion that because of the way the bible has been edited and re-written to fit the views of priests, popes and leaders, that christ is a fictional character, any historical references to him could easilly have been fabricated to serve their purpose.

[Arnold Layne]

its still not clear to me how 'by gods grace alone' we achieve salvation. does this mean that god judges you then if youve not been too bad you are saved or does this mean that god judges you and if you've not been too bad and want redemption then you are saved? or does it mean something else? i just want to clear this up as it sounds to me like another way of saying god will forgive you but only if you want it, as i was taught.

From a Protestant Christian point of view: All men stand condemned as sinners. They stand condemned before the justice of God. God decided to save some. This he did by satisfying his own justice on their behalf at the cross. To those who he has chosen, he imparts the gift of faith etc.

No merit. No earning it. All is gift.

I don't know how much clearer this can be put TBH. I think you are trying too hard with it.

"If you want it, God has already given it. Thats why you want it". Is that any clearer?

a point i failed to pick up on earlier was christs death on the cross, i dont believe he died for our sins at all, i believe that if he existed he died because he was a potential threat to roman authority and nothing more. im also of the opinion that because of the way the bible has been edited and re-written to fit the views of priests, popes and leaders, that christ is a fictional character, any historical references to him could easilly have been fabricated to serve their purpose.

Each of us must believe what we believe. And respect those who believe otherwise, even when we disagree mightily.

I am just stating the standard Protestant View. I respect it, but I do not share it, even if once I did. It certainly needs criticism, and modernisation. Is it capable of either?

So far, I have not ventured to define my own faith one way or another in this thread.

Edited January 31, 2008 by Arnold Layne

[delta-green]

From a Protestant Christian point of view: All men stand condemned as sinners. They stand condemned before the justice of God. God decided to save some. This he did by satisfying his own justice on their behalf at the cross. To those who he has chosen, he imparts the gift of faith etc.

No merit. No earning it. All is gift.

I don't know how much clearer this can be put TBH. I think you are trying too hard with it.

"If you want it, God has already given it. Thats why you want it". Is that any clearer?

yeah, but its still not what i was taught. no wonder the church is in such a state if they cant even relay the correct message, unless of course that message differs by each christian faction. i had the typical r.e education in school, which is c of e, so unless my teacher was preaching falsely, their take on this subject differs from that of a protestants or a catholics.

[Guest dr rockster]

Being born bad is another concept that really offends me as the most pure thing in life is an innocent child.

I loathe the Catholic Church for filling my head with the most evil shit imaginable by blokes in man dresses who don't know anything about anything except to bleat to a congregation about how all evil and tainted we are.

And what do they know of life,having cut themselves off from normal human responses that come out of human relationships but oh no these saddo's,these self denialists of meaningful intercourse with their fellow human beings are actually supposed to hand out advice to their flock when they know absolutely nothing about the human condition having removed themselves from it to live in a world of sexual repression which is as we know the breeding ground of perversion,doh and double doh! :doh:

Just ask a choir boy and I don't mean that lightly as I did alter service(the shame,the shame!)for some man dress wearing peado with my mate who was obviously prettier than me so I saw him get hassled.

I've been beaten up,felt up,had the most ridiculous utter cack rammed down my throat with canings and worse if I did not learn this crap parrot fashion and all without being told what it all fucking means.

Its everymans right to have freedom of belief but don't ask me to respect a person because they are religious and I will do my best to pour scorn on their ridiculous dogmas IF you shove them in my face.

To Father Eric my tormentor: If there is a hell........you are fucked!

But that guy Jesus Christ I can really relate to

Please God,you could work in mysterious ways and bring that satellite thats falling to earth to land on the Whitehouse or Vatican?

THAT would convert me!

[Arnold Layne]

yeah, but its still not what i was taught. no wonder the church is in such a state if they cant even relay the correct message, unless of course that message differs by each christian faction. i had the typical r.e education in school, which is c of e, so unless my teacher was preaching falsely, their take on this subject differs from that of a protestants or a catholics.

Of course the factions differ - that's why they are factions!

As to the CoE, its totally riddled with varying differing theologies. Its a "broad church" denomination. But its official position is outlined in the "39 Articles of Religion" which are always worth a read, as is the whole Book of Common Prayer. If you really want to numb your brain, try reading Hooker's "Laws of Ecclesiatical Polity" where you will find the rationale behind the Elizabethan Settlement. You'll be a better man than me if you can make head or tail of it, mind; there's only around 8 volumes of the most turgid and inpenetrable text ever written! I got to around p.150 of volume one and gave up by way of falling alseep, again!

Rockster, your experiences are bad, but as I've tried to point out there are plenty of variations within Roman Catholicism, and you seem to have been unlucky in your life to be saddled with the sorry examples you speak of. There really are better RC people around I once met some fantastic RC nuns who were of the Charismatic persuasion. Liberated, and immensely spiritual people they were. None of the old RC nosense with them. Forget their Order now, sadly.

You're an intelligent man, go treat yourself to a read of some Kung. It'll make your eyes stand-out! Heavy work mind, he's a top flight Theologian and a brain of enormous proportions!

Plus, I honestly think you should sue your abusers. Sounds like you need to, to me.

[Culchi]

According to Dante, the gates of Hell say, "Abandon all hope, ye who enter", or something like that. Presumably heavens's gates say something like, "Leave your grudges outside"?

I believe there are 2 forces at work - Chaos and Luck - my life's chaos, but if I'm lucky, I'll get to heaven.

[delta-green]

Of course the factions differ - that's why they are factions!

so which is the most accurate or is it purely down to interpretation? if its all interpretation then i think people would do well to avoid organised religion and read the bible [or whichever text they use depending on their faith] for themselves, that way you dont have to do things like ritualised cannibilism and it will have greater meaning to the reader on a more personal level.

[EaszyStoner]

WHEN I DIE I WILL JUST BECOME ONE WITH THE FORCE AGAIN

EITHER THAT OR I WILL GET EATEN BY THE WORMS IN MY WOODEN BOX, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE

[kilgore trout]

so arnold, the protestant theology? is just purely deterministic?

thats a pretty mind blowing idea, i spose thats why there was this idea that if you were rich, that proved that god favoured you?

what a strange world to live in where any action has no meaning and your fate is determined by the whim of an onipotent and unpredictable diety

sounds prety much, if ya skip the diety, like material determinism

i think i may find it hard to get out of bed in the morning if i didnt believe i chose to do so

[Guest dr rockster]

That's an interesting point as I discussed a bit of theology with my brother in law,a secular Egyptian and he spoke of

Islam being just so,deterministic,as you said Kilgore,meaning every man has been preordained 'his talents and his portions'is the wording my bruv spoke of,so the beggar in the street was put their purposely and there was nothing he could do about it,it was not his in will to change his fate,just as the richest was put where he is,and that I find rather depressing,its fatalistic,so maybe a beggar would not bother to change or better himself or

anybody for that matter almost has a get out clause,an excuse,I dunno,for less than good human behaviour?,shit,I'm struggling here.Ah! It's my Karma,yes? Er,no,on thinking about it that isnt a kinda parallel?

But yeah,Kilgore,I choose to get out of bed in the morning,there are no metaphysical puppet strings attached to me.

[Arnold Layne]

KG, Rockster:

In short, the answer is, "Almost"

Protestant theology originates in the works of the major Reformers - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and several others like the British mob, Ridley, Cramner etc etc. In all of these you can see the Theo-centricity of Augustine (he of Hippo), which Theo-centricity necessitates a very robust notion of Divine Sovereignty. Both Calvin and Luther produced tracts about the notion of Divine Sovereignty. Calvin's being very aptly named "Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God", if I recall correctly.

However, Reformed Theology has always felt awkward with the full on Supralapsarianism found in Calvin, in which even Adam's decision to rebel against God is pre-ordained, as is the fall of Lucifer, the fall of Eve, the guilt of the enitire human race and the precise number of those to be damned and those to be saved. Divine Sovereignty, for Calvin, is an Absolute. The awkwardness felt by many with this position is what gave rise to various alternatives found within Infralapsarianism (which states that any elective choices made by God took place after the fall of Adam and Eve and should be seen as mere "foreknowledge"), and onwards into the tide of modern Protestant theologies where one finds notions concerning the freedom of human will, a notion condemned in earlier centuries as profoundly heretical. So, for example, Pelagius was condemned by both Augustine, and officially by the Roman Church for this very doctrine in somewhere around AD 415 I think.

The problem is acute for Christian theology. Can God be reckoned in any way dependant upon the will and whim of mankind? Can Mankind be reckoned in any way dependent upon the Divine Sovereignty? Can Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom co-exist?

It's a problem that, I suspect, is inevitable where religion is centred on a male deity revealed through a written text. Were Christianity to re-locate its seat of authority out of Scripture and man-made tradition and into the spiritual experience of the believer (as in Quakerism), it may begin to realise that the whole debate is one vast blasphemous irrelevence. It may also find that concern with Heaven and hell is misplaced, both being the products of the same faulty religious system.

[Guest]

Where do Aliens/Extraterrestrials fit into all this????.......or do they?

[scariatis]

It may also find that concern with Heaven and hell is misplaced, both being the products of the same faulty religious system.

How so Arnold? Not sure I understand that. Is concern with heaven and hell the same as a concern with justice?

I ask, because obviously most ( if not all) of the laws in this land for example, are borne of the very foundations cumulated in the faulty religious system that you mention. Thats not in an eschatological sense - just here and now.

Sorry.....minds gone blank......was sure I had a really interesting point to make

I'd best put spliff down now. Back later when I can remember what I was to say!