Democracy

[kilgore trout]

so the american constitution was made so that all would have basic human rights, so that the majority could never dictate what individuals could do, is it true that democracy and control of the mass media has created a new kind of fascism where opinion is dictated by those who control the media and individual freedom is sacrificed to the will of the majority(which is manipulated by those who own the media)?

is democracy freedom for all, or just another method of control of the prols by the elite? are we suffering a new kind of dictatorship, controlled by the media savey power mongers?

does the rule of majority mean persecusion of the minority?

is it time i should go to bed?, should i really watch programs made by alex jones?

Edited August 1, 2007 by kilgore trout

[Guest Dr Benways Assistant]

I can only answer the last question; definitely not.

[ninorc]

You need only look at the current situation in the Middle East, where the democratically-elected government of Palestine has been ruthlessly suppressed by its neighbours in Israel, which country has also recently invaded Lebanon in response to the citizens of that country having elected some representatives of whom Israel and its sponsor, the US do not approve. The US and UK justified the invasion of Iraq in the name of 'democracy', but both are effectively one party states with two branches - called, in this country, Labour/Tory - which offer the electorate no real choice. 'Democracy' has become a euphemism for free market capitalism, but as it was conceived in ancient Greece, true Democracy remains a great idea and I hope they get around to re-introducing it in my lifetime.

Edit to add: I see I'm talking to myself at 5am on Wednesday morning. This is possibly the quietest I've ever seen it on UK420. This may been the consequence of not having smoked a spliff in ten days. I have, however, had a cup of tea and shall now go back to bed.... Zzzz

Oh, look, I see an expanded range of emoticons is back. Look at this one

Edited August 1, 2007 by ninorc

[Culchi]

Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote in "The Social Contract" (1762), which was cited in the French Revolution, "Democracy is the tyranny of the majority." I would probably add "of those who bother to vote". Someone only has to cross a line to see that "Right of Might" is still pretty much the way of the land - especially as protests are usually met head-on with police in riot gear. Personally speaking, I try not to keep up with the Jones'.

[Boojum]

As Ninorc says we don't live in a democracy, neither do folks in the US. And, for that matter, neither did the ancient Athenians, their system was called a democracy but it wasn't, women weren't allowed to vote, in fact the vast majority of the Athenians weren't allowed to vote. The only people who were allowed to vote were property and land owners who could trace Athenian citizenship back to at least their grandparents. The Athenian system of government was more a plutocracy than a democracy, and was built on the back of the vast slave trade in Athens - the reason the land owners had time to spend debating and voting is because all the work in Athens was done by slaves. Athens as a democracy is mere historical myth, the same kind of myth as the idea that the Romans were civilised and everyone else barbarians. Propaganda written by the folks with the power to write the history, nothing more. The first TRUE democracy (and one of the very few real democracies) in the world was actually the Althing created in Thingvellir, Iceland in about 930AD.

Our brand of 'democracy' is certainly a form of dictatorship, one that legitimises itself because they can always say "We are doing your will, you elected us.". But a choice of two, both little different from each other, is not in any way, shape or form a democracy. The way that party politics work, the way that funds are raised, makes it impossible for any but the established parties to stand a chance at getting a parliamentary majority, therefore it cannot be claimed to be a true democracy because it doesn't start from a level playing field.

But in all honesty a true democracy would be little better - do you REALLY want your government to be selected by the majority of people in this country ? Sun & Daily Mail reading morons who haven't had an original thought in their lives. Far as I can see it true democracy just means lowest common denominator wins.

In an ideal world the best two forms of government would be a benign dictatorship, one person or party with a absolute power but using that power for the good of everyone, or anarchy. But while we as humans are still afflicted by petty greed, selfishness and all the other crap that makes us act in our own interest neither of the above are feasable or possible. But is democracy any better or worse than any other kind of government, I don't think so once you get past the surface difference to the actual governance itself, in fact I would say that true communism (not the kind that has been tried in Russia, China, Cuba etc, which isn't real communism but a variation on a theme, real communism for example doesn't require restrictions on free speech and civil rights), at least on paper, is probably a better system - but then that too gets fucked over by the greed and petty ambition of people, Chairman Mao's personality got in the way of Chinese communism, Joseph Stalin's paranoia, ambition and probable psychosis got in the way of Russian communism, just for starters.

As a final point let us not forget, as 'democrats' and part of the 'free world', the USA toppled the legitimate democracy in Iran in 1953 to set up a puppet monarch on the throne, which paved the way for revolution and the creation of the first truly Islamist republic in the world under the rule of the Ayatollah. So if Iran is indeed part of the 'axis of evil', it's a part like most of the others that was created by America sticking its nose in everyone else's affairs and playing God with the politics of the world. In the name of 'democracy'. Kinda a sick joke really isn't it, a 'democracy' deliberately overthrowing another (perhaps truer) democracy and creating a monarchy with a puppet monarch, all in the name of 'freedom'

[turnip]

When I look around at my fellow subjects any dream of a true democracy in this country is rudely shattered by the realisation that most of them are complete knuckle dragging, moronic fuckwits, our elected goverment understands this only too well therefore it has adapted the process of voting so that no mental or physical effort is involved. You can now vote by post, in the supermarket, on the internet(I think) or, heaven forbid, go to the polling booth.

Our leaders have realised that with our increasingly stupid, illiterate and lazy population very few of them know what a goverment policy is let alone be able to spell it and few would feel bothered to go to the polling station even if they understood what they are voting for. They know that if you upset them too much then they won't vote or won't vote for you so they keep the masses happy with tax credits, benefits galore and goverment jobs. To keep these perks it is not too difficult whilst in the supermarket buying their chicken nuggets and chips with extra fat to, as an afterthought, put a cross in the right box.

It might be just too much of an effort to actually think what they are doing, consider who and what they are voting for and why and then waddle off down to the polling station to cast a vote.

The point is that you should make an effort to vote, it should not be made easy and should not be like filling in a competition form on the back of the cornflake packet. Democracy is not perfect and our system is far from perfect but as we have it it should only be for those who have a brain and I am leaning towards a system where only people with an IQ of higher than 50 should vote, (that will rule out most).

Apologies to UK420 members, you are of course all extremely intelligent, well read and bright and not to be confused with the masses

[Boojum]

Another massive criticism of 'western democracy' as it exists now is that elections have fuck all to do with the policies, they are merely glorified popularity contests, nothing more. How can you seriously consider your country to be a democracy when the vast majority of its citizens have fuck all understanding of it's history, political process or even the policies of the parties. Our elections are less a democratic process and more like the voting on Big fucking Brother.

[HvyFuel]

I know I'm repeating myself but we could only be called a democracy if every citizen were able to vote on every issue. MPs are no longer needed imo, we have a machine capable of doing their, or rather our, job.

[scoobs]

I know I'm repeating myself but we could only be called a democracy if every citizen were able to vote on every issue. MPs are no longer needed imo, we have a machine capable of doing their, or rather our, job.

I agree completely. We don't really live in a democracy - we just elect our dictator.

[vyral]

Most of what ive read here i can relate to, the masses dont vote on what directly effects them, instead we hire people to do that work for us, in a way that could create less stress, but usually ends up with the voters being disapointed, aka war in iraq, public smoking bans, shit like that, just because a group of reps dont want it does NOT mean that 100 million other people (or more) dont want it also, we are being mis-represented. im upset with what "democracy" has transformed into. or become, maybe it was corrupt from the start, a scheme that took the american public 231 years to realize.

[vyral]

Another massive criticism of 'western democracy' as it exists now is that elections have fuck all to do with the policies, they are merely glorified popularity contests, nothing more. How can you seriously consider your country to be a democracy when the vast majority of its citizens have fuck all understanding of it's history, political process or even the policies of the parties. Our elections are less a democratic process and more like the voting on Big fucking Brother.

YES, its like back in high school voting for fucking prom king and queen = president and vice. and who says there not rigged anyway. we US citizens have let the government get TOO much power, police with badges is cool, but shotguns tasers mace ar 15s stop sticks pit maneuvers, i mean its a mind fuck when you see the red and blue in the rear view because unless your a law school graduate that cop is gonna try to mind fuck you into doing everything the way he wants it

[Guest Gert Lush]

If you think we're not a democracy, try living in some shithole like Burma, Dubai, Sudan, N.Korea, China or whatever....

OK, our "democracy" leaves a lot to be desired, but what did you expect? It can only be as good as the people that make it up, and the appropriate comments about them have already been made.

You can read this forum without worrying that some Party Apparatchik is spying on your Web use, and you will soon have your door kicked in. Hell, with some discretion you can even grow weed, and your biggest headache will be a community service order, not a mandatory 10 years in jail, or even a death sentence.

Our democracy may be crap, but it DOES allow intelligent people to get on with what they want, without too much hassle. (I didn't say no hassle)

It also allows people to form associations (of whatever kind) to promote and safeguard their own interests. What more do you want? Whose fault is it if they don't excercise that option?

I find that most people who complain about our democracy are the ones without the gumption to use it properly. The ones that want everyhing served ready on a plate. Let's not blame our inadequate "democracy", for our own inadequateness, which is the reason that our democracy is inadequate in the first place....

Fact is, crap as our democracy is, it's still about the best it's ever been.

[HvyFuel]

It may be the best elected dictatorship there is, in your opinion, it still isn't a democracy.

[Culchi]

The reason why "Western Democracy" goes easier on its citizens is summed up by the saying, "You catch more flies with honey than with a rolled-up newspaper." All countries control through fear. Fear is a common human emotion that is easily stirred at times and can cause mass hysteria in some cases. However under a controlled environment, e.g. one that requires a license to receive broadcast television signals, the stage is set to lure in as many people in one sitting as possible, the rest will come skipping after, like the Pied Piper of Hamlin, and those who don't agree, well, there's special places for them.... I'd have to go with Boojum on that one - benign dictatorships are few and far between, my friend (Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolute), so I'd have to go for either anarchy, or an end to world trade with a view to a united planet (A bit too Trekkie for me, so Anarchy in the UK - (Out of chaos comes order - aw blow it out yer ass, Howard). With perhaps Satanism as the One True World Religion and everyone having to receive a mark, on their foreheads, or on their right hand, a number. "Let he who hath understanding reckon the number of the Beast, for it is a human number. It's number is 666." We're all going to end up bar-coded anyway once the ID system really kicks off... :wink: Viva la Revolution! :wink:

E2A: IMHO - the UK can, at best, be described as a Utilitarian Dictatoral Capitalist Society, with the lingering essence of Victorian morals, reverting to serfdom. The House of Commons is the next step from the Old School Days Debating Society, the House of Lords really do see themselves as our peers, ergo our betters, and at the top of the food chain, sitting on their pampered arses, with 52 paid holidays a year each - the cream of the selective breeding, inbred crop. Maybe it's time someone attacked the milk cart (That last bit is not a hidden message to all you cannabis-abusing psychotics out there reading this btw - so please do not assault the milkman on his rounds - it ain't big and it ain't clever).

Edited August 2, 2007 by Nettle-Grower

[Culchi]

And a very Happy Birthday to Boojum - how many joints on the cake today? Hope it's not your 30th - statistically, 1 in a billion people develop schizophrenia on their 30th birthdays - it's true - I know him, though I haven't seen him in a while. As you know, schizophrenia is illegal - do not accept it. Demand a genuine mental illness from your local psychosis dealer - Always check for a hallucination. Poor quality schizophrenic copies of mental illness can affect your audio and visual pleasure. You wouldn't steal a shop, or stab a celebrity, so why would you be a schizophrenic? Schizophrenia is a crime. Hope you don't get it Boo, but hope you do have an extremely mental birthday (barfday?) - don't whitey!!! :wink:

Edited to add: Maybe one of the Mods will be kind enough to post this into the "Happy Birthday Boojum" ? Please? Proost! again.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Nettle-Grower