Guest dr rockster Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 (edited) No of course it would'nt because you are you are about as objective as any conspiracy theorist. I'm trying to have a discussion here stormstella,so please don't think I am having any kind of personal pop at you and I have nothing but respect for christians generally(twat in the whitehouse,er I dunno) To try and make prophetic links with these ambiguous statements in the bible is plain daft. To offer me this as 'evidence' is laughable. C'mon,virgin birth? Ok Arnie,or divine conception. Edited July 6, 2007 by dr rockster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gr8LondonSun Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 OK Divine Conception! Damn i love a good religious debate! I used to love it back in the day, answerin the door in my boxer shorts on a saturday morn, havin a theological dabate on the doorstep only to realise that those preachin to me knew less about their own religion than i did. I think its in good spirit, but at least send out knowledgable people, not people that just want to leave literature that they accept without question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squaggles Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Well I agree with Arnie , if God created the universe surely a virgin birth is a very simple thing ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormstella Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Nowhere does the Bible teach a virgin birth. A divine conception, yes; but a virgin birth - well, that's a misnoma right there.So let us discuss the credibility of the idea that the Spirit of God could create a human foetus in a woman's womb, without the aid of sperm. Given a faith in Divine Creation of the universe, this would appear to be a minor, albeit redemptively significant, view. Probably a Paulinist slant, given credibility to his "Old/New Adam" Theology? The bible does teach a virgin birth Isaiah 7:14 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Which means God with us. There is proof believe it or not but i can bet you wont believe it. So i am not going to waste my time telling you about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidekik Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 (edited) Jehovahs witness' have a lot to answer for in this house, we are presently providing shelter for a young man aged 16, his mother and father threw him out because he wouldn't accept their view/ideology. I am sorry but throwing your own out of the house at that age or any age is ... well maybe i shouldn't go there, suffice to say this young man is very hurt and confused but i am amazed at how he is sticking to his guns. Religion is ok i guess, it's when people put their own slant on it and bend it to their own needs it gets bad ... hang on, isn't that just about everytime? God is love, it's an easy one that. Peace sk EDIT: The bible?? whats all this about the bible, it's just someones say so, it's been altered and rehashed a fair few times, i cannot believe people take that book as gospel, [no pun intended]. Edited July 6, 2007 by sidekik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormstella Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 (edited) No of course it would'nt because you are you are about as objective as any conspiracy theorist. I'm trying to have a discussion here stormstella,so please don't think I am having any kind of personal pop at you and I have nothing but respect for christians generally(twat in the whitehouse,er I dunno) To try and make prophetic links with these ambiguous statements in the bible is plain daft. To offer me this as 'evidence' is laughable. C'mon,virgin birth? Ok Arnie,or divine conception. Of course it is evidence jesus did exist and jesus did fulfill over 300 prophecies, How could anyone fake so many prophecies concerning themselves. The bible said jesus would be born in bethlehem, he was how could he fake that? It says in the psalm 22:16 jesus speaking that they pierced my hands and feet, meaning the crucifixion. The crucifixion was not even invented until the romans came and that prophecy in the psalms was written 993 years before jesus even came! there is so many. he was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver by judas of iscariot that is written in zechariah 11:12 494 bc there is many many more. Edited July 6, 2007 by stormstella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dr rockster Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Well I agree with Arnie , if God created the universe surely a virgin birth is a very simple thing ? IF God created he universe,yes thankyou squaggles. 'If' being the operative word. I'm not saying there isnt some kind of god or intelligence that created this universe. Fact of the matter is I don't know,nobody does. But the bible is a crock when it comes to explaining things. Adam and Eve,rubbish. Noah and the flood,rubbish. The God of the first testament was an evil wicked racist sexist contrary capricious bunch of arsepheckshite ffs! 'Go slay the ashkalons(or whoever)and kill them all but take the girls with cherries intact' 'If your daugher disobeys you sell her into slavery' Pure shit like that that christians conveniently forget about and only selectively take passages out of the bible that reinforce your views. Man I could go to my reference books and give you reams of glaring inconsistencies. Atheists differ from superstitionists in that we actually think about the world about us and with proof of a god would worship him. But all that the bible has given us,just like any other of the 2000 religions on this planet is a bunch of after the fact writings that anybody could write prophesy into if you are that desperate to make links where there are none. My eyes are open and I think Stormstella whereas you just believe without proof and in fact you believe when there is more proof to the contrary. It's a middle eastern desert cult that got out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold Layne Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 The bible does teach a virgin birth Isaiah 7:14 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Which means God with us. There is proof believe it or not but i can bet you wont believe it. So i am not going to waste my time telling you about it. Did you read what I said earlier about my background? Try to learn Hebrew and translate it for yourself. Virgin? Young woman. That young Hebrew women were by and large virginal may be true. But not always so. To translate it as "Virgin" is back-reading and reflects a Christian translation of the Hebrew, and an attempt to force Jesus back into OT prophecy. So your "Virgin Birth" amounts to no more than "A young woman shall conceive and bear a child". Not unusual. In any case, Isa 7:14 in no way speaks of any divine conception or miraculous birth. Just conception, and birth. As to wasting your time - if you're trying to convert folks, don't bother. And why should we waste our time on you, if it comes to that? Just another Evangelical fundamentalist, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squaggles Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Those pesky Gideons only left a bible with the New Testament in my hotel room , am I missing out ? I must say that Jesus was an extremely nice bloke though . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dr rockster Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Gotcha stormstella ha ha! The word virgin is incorrect as it was originally 'young woman' when written in one language but because of a translational ambiguity it became 'virgin' and the christian church knows this but stays schtum about it as it would prove that one of their main 'miracles' or acts of God is a crock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormstella Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 IF God created he universe,yes thankyou squaggles. 'If' being the operative word. I'm not saying there isnt some kind of god or intelligence that created this universe. Fact of the matter is I don't know,nobody does. But the bible is a crock when it comes to explaining things. Adam and Eve,rubbish. Noah and the flood,rubbish. The God of the first testament was an evil wicked racist sexist contrary capricious bunch of arsepheckshite ffs! 'Go slay the ashkalons(or whoever)and kill them all but take the girls with cherries intact' 'If your daugher disobeys you sell her into slavery' Pure shit like that that christians conveniently forget about and only selectively take passages out of the bible that reinforce your views. Man I could go to my reference books and give you reams of glaring inconsistencies. Atheists differ from superstitionists in that we actually think about the world about us and with proof of a god would worship him. But all that the bible has given us,just like any other of the 2000 religions on this planet is a bunch of after the fact writings that anybody could write prophesy into if you are that desperate to make links where there are none. My eyes are open and I think Stormstella whereas you just believe without proof and in fact you believe when there is more proof to the contrary. It's a middle eastern desert cult that got out of hand. You have not answered my other posts, jesus did exist. Even athiest roman historians wrote about jesus, so if jesus existed which i believe he did, then he did fulfill over 300 + prophecies which makes him God in the flesh. There is not one religion in the whole wide world which has prophectic writings which have been fulfilled like the bible does. The koran does not have any prophecies concerning mohammed, not any other religion does, proove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr welly smeed Posted July 6, 2007 Author Share Posted July 6, 2007 I believe the jw's have a lot to answer for too.They bring up there childre in "the truth" and always refer to it as the truth not their truth.When a human mind is young and forming we have a great responsibility to keep it open and encourage their own belief and imagination.By wrapping them in a cotton wool based on a mostly false truth and excluding them from what they teach is an inherently evil "world" you are stiffling them beyond repair.How can one function later life in a world that you were taught to mistrust and maybe even be destroyed?How can you intergrate into a society you were taught is immoral from a young age by your parents who you trust,especially when other paths are closed to you? This is irresponsible at best,even if there intention is good,they are deeply misled.My brother who was 2 years my junior could never trust and not ever function in the world because of this and last year aged 31 killed himself after years of really horrible confusion and paranoia.I believe this is mostly down to his inability to break free from ingrained subconcious conflict inherited from childhood and teenage years, some kind of guilt about the way he lived and the way we were told was true. Do i hate them? sometimes yes,but mostly i pity the lost souls who are drawn to it or even unwittingly prayed upon by others who have used these beliefs to fill a hole in there lives and want to help you do the same,not through malice or the need to control but through ignorance and a misguided sense of knowing the truth and needing you to believe too,if they can convince you it's the truth then it's easy to convince themselves to. As for prophesy...time will tell on that one.A chosen few (144,000) born of the generation of 1914 will "by no means pass away and then the end will come"This must be soon.Other last days prophesy is said that there will be a ban on world religion and a declaration of world peace..these are the last signs...my mother to this day gets excited and sees famine,climate change and violence etc as signs and is expecting judgment day any day now..she cries because i will be destroyed as a non believer yet worships jehovah still..Yeah they have a lot to answer too..but i pity them.. Thanks for indulging me and my rant...interesting stuff..Welly The kingdom of god is within you.. Luke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dr rockster Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 (edited) Those pesky Gideons only left a bible with the New Testament in my hotel room , am I missing out ? I must say that Jesus was an extremely nice bloke though . Jesus as a bloke sounds like a well sound geezer,no doubt about it. It's the crap that followed that does my head in. All organised religion is the MAIN cause of shit in the world be it the crusades of long ago or these arsholes running around cutting heads off peeps. And that's my final word in this thread stormstella as we've made our points and can merely agree goodnaturedly to differ. I'm happy for you that you get spiritual nourishment from the bible,I really am. Rocksta,tha unbelieva. Edited July 6, 2007 by dr rockster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormstella Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 Gotcha stormstella ha ha! The word virgin is incorrect as it was originally 'young woman' when written in one language but because of a translational ambiguity it became 'virgin' and the christian church knows this but stays schtum about it as it would prove that one of their main 'miracles' or acts of God is a crock. I dont think so rockster you have not got me what is this a game to you? You need to go back to hebrew the original language of the old testament before telling me that virgin is incorrect. The word virgin was in the old testament and is translated almah, al-maw a lass (as veiled or private) damsel, maid, virgin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dr rockster Posted July 6, 2007 Share Posted July 6, 2007 I dont think so rockster you have not got me what is this a game to you? You need to go back to hebrew the original language of the old testament before telling me that virgin is incorrect. The word virgin was in the old testament and is translated almah, al-maw a lass (as veiled or private) damsel, maid, virgin I said I was done but I have to answer this. It doesnt matter what the word for virgin was until after he was born as that was when the claim for a virgin birth was made and not before. But I gotta(snigger!) ask........ Do you believe the earth is 6,000 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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