variability in plants from seed

[MrSlatersParrot]

18 hours ago, Amarillo slim said:

5 seeds leaves room for benefit of the doubt, maybe the stretchy plants are 1 out of 10 and you just got unlucky, stuff happens.  

 

But yeah, sloppy breeding / poor descriptions aren’t exactly rare these days. Doesn’t make much business sense to spend several years and bunch of time / space & money to actually breed something, when can buy bulk stock from Spanish seed makers, and slap on a name like ‘banana kush cake’ , and know they will sell due to marketing / branding.   Again not saying that’s necessarily the case here, as don’t know company, just outlining what’s become common practice among many of todays Breeders businessmen.  

 

Nothing inherently wrong with high variation, so long as accurately reflected in the description.   As others have said, sometimes it’s desirable (to pick a mum).  Sensi seeds jack herer was like that back in the day, can pick what suits you on the spectrum from BLD to NLD (all good plants) .  Just meant that first grow was a bit of a mess but then you run clones of your favourite there after (which given price of the seeds, was only real choice anyway). 

 

Well if they're 1 out of 10 that makes the chance of them being 4 out of my 5 very small - I make it 0.00045! So less than 1 pack in 2000. But as you say stuff happens and it has to happen to someone.

 

And the cynic in me has to agree that marketing/hype takes the place of providing a good product in many areas of our world!

The company have now offered me a 20 euro credit but don't really want to talk about it beyond saying they don't guarantee against phenotype variation.

I think this level of variation absolutely should be mentioned in the description, otherwise what's the point?!

 

Yeah I stopped growing from cuttings when I moved I think it's time for a change of plan.

[MrSlatersParrot]

2 hours ago, Cajafiesta said:

The variability of plants from seed is entirely dependent on the total "details" of the seed line. 

 

They can range anywhere from nearly identical to almost hard to believe they're all seeds from the same plant.    If you want consistent plant from seeds you're going to have the best chance finding that in seed lines that have been worked to a high filial generation ( indicated by F#.  F2, F3, F4 etc.  Expect to start seeing some stability around F4 or so.)   Alternately, lined indicated as "IBL" or Inbred Line have a better chance of having similar plants. 

 

The term F1 gets thrown around a lot.  That's " First Filial Generation."  A cross of Mother X and Father Z.  Seeing stability in an F1 generation isn't a certainty.  The concept of " all identical F1 plants" is relevant, but it seems only really relevant in the sense of a TRUE F1 HYBRID.  That's not the same thing as a first filial generation F1.  True F1 Hybrids are more in the realm of two very dissimilar ( think something like a landrace NLD plant from Colombia crossed to a landrace BLD plant from Afghanistan)  parent genetics combined.  This generally gets you a better chance of standout first filial gen plants.  Vigor, consistency etc.  This is assusming that the starting inputs for the True F1 Hybrid were pretty consistent to start with.  Ideally, in my mind, you'd start the idea of making a True F1 Hybrid with those very dissimilar lines that, themselves, were Inbred lines to begin with. 

 

 BUT  Making a first filial generation from Mother A ( lets call it purple people eater cookie banana bread lollipop) and father B ( let's call it donkey dick strawberry shartzmuffin) DOES NOT produce the same result as a true F1 Hybrid.  There's a high likelihood that the first filial generation offspring from these polyhybrid modern parents WILL NOT result in very stable first generation offspring. This I have seen first hand many times.  It's common for me to pollen chuck some shit in a "see what happens" scenario.  I will find great plant's, but there will be variability that can totally be assigned to one or both of the parents.  " This one got the leaf structure from the father, but node spacing and resin looks like the mother.  it smells like a combination of the mother and father with some weird addition of XYZ smell."   or, alternately, " This one is a spitting image of the mother structurally but all of the positive traits like smell and resin production have been completely deleted.  It looks like the mother identically but smells and smokes like useless hay."  That sorta thing.

 

 

Hope that makes some degree of sense.  I'm not an expert.  Just throwing out what comes to mind here. 

 

 

 

 

Damn.  How have I not thought of "Shartz Muffin" as a strain name yet. 

 

Do  Y'all have the term "Shart?"   It's a shit-fart over here in the states.  You know, when you think it's a fart and it definitely wasn't...SURPRISE.  And no the good kinda surprise 

 

Very interesting, I know some of what you say but you know more than me. I think I learnt that an F1 is a cross between two pure strains (but of course it's more complicated than that), and that breeders often pick two strains that are quite different so as to encourage uniformity and hybrid vigour. I always assumed that was why NLxHaze was such a good plant, because the parents were quite different and didn't share much ancestry.

 

So it sounds like no-one takes the trouble to stabilise a strain, and all these exotic varieties we can buy are going to be pretty random. In fact with increasingly complicated crosses as time goes on, maybe they all get more and more alike as they increasingly share ancestors!

 

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the  White Widow you can buy now isn't the same as it was 20 years ago, I think I'd agree with that. Is it the same for all the old varieties, Northern Lights, Haze, Superskunk and whatnot?

[Amarillo slim]

6 hours ago, MrSlatersParrot said:

Well if they're 1 out of 10 that makes the chance of them being 4 out of my 5 very small - I make it 0.00045! So less than 1 pack in 2000. But as you say stuff happens and it has to happen to someone.

Fair. Was exaggerating to make a point, didn’t do the maths and I guess 1 in 2000 would be very unlucky indeed!  But I’ve seen more unbelievable shit happen in games of poker etc.  

 

6 hours ago, MrSlatersParrot said:

I think this level of variation absolutely should be mentioned in the description, otherwise what's the point?!

 

I’ve googled the name and if its the Sensi seeds one then they do mention high variation (on the website description).  But they also say “there will be subtle physical differences between the plants”.   Maybe subtle is a bad translation / loose term.  

 

5 hours ago, MrSlatersParrot said:

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the  White Widow you can buy now isn't the same as it was 20 years ago,

 

I grew bunch of white widow recently from all the big companies , none of it was anything to write home about / worth breeding with in my eyes.  

 

5 hours ago, MrSlatersParrot said:

that an F1 is a cross between two pure strains

 

Idea with an F1 is you get uniformity like an IBL but without the low vigour, if anything you’re more likely to have plants a bit more vigorous than from standard population or polyhybrid.  As mentioned, using unrelated genetics increases the chances of heterosis aka hybrid vigour in an F1.  

They’re also great for protecting work from rips offs,  as don’t grow true from seed like an IBL would.  

 

5 hours ago, MrSlatersParrot said:

So it sounds like no-one takes the trouble to stabilise a strain,

 

I will be giving out some seeds for testing this summer which are about as close to true F1s as you’ll find. 

 

Should be uniform enough to grow crops from seed and have all plants grow the same, finish around the same time and go in the same bag at the end.  (Indoor hybrids) . 

 

Edited March 30 by Amarillo slim

[Cajafiesta]

7 minutes ago, Amarillo slim said:

to true F1s as you’ll find. 

What’s the genetics used, if I can ask. True F1s are on my mind too. I have some Colombian IBL freezer pollen that’s itching for a home. Thinking about using 88g13/hp as the female but I dunno yet.

[Military Grade]

13 minutes ago, Amarillo slim said:

I will be giving out some seeds for testing this summer which are about as close to true F1s as you’ll find. 

[Amarillo slim]

32 minutes ago, Cajafiesta said:

What’s the genetics used, if I can ask. True F1s are on my mind too. I have some Colombian IBL freezer pollen that’s itching for a home. Thinking about using 88g13/hp as the female but I dunno yet.

 

I’ve created a number of novel IBLs via selfing to the S4/5 area, by which time they are in there own right new creations which only loosely resemble the starting material,  so not much point giving names (which are just acronyms that have meaning to me).   Starting material is in most cases elite clone cultivars but have also a couple which are from seed stock either offered as F1s by another breeder or already inbred lines (gifted from fellow canna enthusiasts).  

 

Couple years back I made some F1s with SMG (Santa marta gold) IBL,  made for some very uniform plants.  Took SMG x BLR to F2 but have yet to dig around properly.  Kind of stuff which would be good for head stash but not suitable for the masses (who want quick / easy / dense frosty ‘flavours’). 

 

25 minutes ago, Military Grade said:

 

For a minute I was thinking it was just a stoned dog pic, then the GIF loaded and made me chuckle  ….

 

One concern with the first F1s ready for testing is might be a bit too vigorous,  as is using distinctly unrelated lines - one highly domesticated (think cookies/cake) and the other close to landrace.   I think that cross could produce some crazy plants! Though obviously growth traits are trivial if the smokes not up to scratch…. Don’t want to say too much,  proofs in the pudding and all that… 

 

Some other stuff will be ready for testing at same time, which will have a touch more variability but will be more special in the smell/flavour and high departments.  

 

Final steps now assessing compatibility / finding right parents to use,  exciting times.   

Edited March 30 by Amarillo slim

[Cajafiesta]

1 hour ago, Amarillo slim said:

ve created a number of novel IBLs via selfing to the S4/5 area,

This is cool. I’ve been interested in this. I just ran through a bunch of hermy s1 beans and wondered the whole time why people (or this breeder anyhow, I guess) wouldn’t work that trait out and land on a further S generation that’s more stable and then sell that line. 

[Amarillo slim]

15 minutes ago, Cajafiesta said:

This is cool. I’ve been interested in this. I just ran through a bunch of hermy s1 beans and wondered the whole time why people (or this breeder anyhow, I guess) wouldn’t work that trait out and land on a further S generation that’s more stable and then sell that line. 

Would be guessing as to why not, could be number of reasons from work involved / lack of understanding to worries about negative recessives / runts & inbreeding depression / low vigour. 
 

Often have to go past S2 to weed out those bad things and by time you’re at a healthy / desirable S4, that’s something too special to release pure.

[-=DrGreenThumb=-]

I like the varability, as others have said, I'm looking for a mother plant most of the time and what I eneded up finding is I prefered the taller ones with lots of vigor and often a more sativa high.

 

If your growing "haze" hybrids, I'd say expect to get phenos like that. Granted if you haven't got the capasity to hold a mother and your having to run seeds everytime then some stability is welcome.

[Trashedagain77]

I like variety too. If they were all the same in a pack then you would surely buy singles and clone them. I have a few landrace which I'd like to cross in good time. Malawi is a good one as it shares little similarities with other strains so I read somewhere anyway as I know zilch about breeding but I would like to educate myself more. I want to make some seeds at some point but need to establish a few mothers to clone and pollinate. Peace.