How much defoliation?

[latitude54]

My autos are a couple of weeks into flower and seem happy enough. However I’m worried that some of the bud sites might not be getting all of the sun they could, so I want to defoliate a little but I’m not really sure how much I can get away with? 

[monkeypig]

Would you take some cylinders out of your car engine to make it go faster? 

 

If I were you I wouldn't remove a single leaf. It's not like you've got many now have you?

[QFMAC]

Hi mate. Imo there is nothing wrong and is beneficial to intelligently remove leaves depending on cultivar/strain, timing, environment etc but looking at your auto, I would say it doesn't need it. If she is still flexible enough then possibly a gentle LST, but again she doesn't look like she really needs that either.

 

I would take off any unnecessary weight from my car to increase my power to weight ratio, improving speed and handling  

Edited August 13, 2022 by QFMAC

[latitude54]

They’ve had some gentle lst and I’ve been trying to tuck any leaves that get in the way of bud sites but being outdoors, the breeze seems to undo any tucking. 

[blackpoolbouncer]

 

18 hours ago, latitude54 said:

I want to defoliate a little but I’m not really sure how much I can get away with? 

If your looking at that and thinking "this need less leaves" your looking at it well wrong.

You literally can't get away with removing a single leaf tbh. It's a single stem plant with few leaves. Not a 4 foot wide bush with 100 colas.

 

@QFMAC bad analogy. You may remove parts from your car for those reasons but when your talking about plants removing bits doesn't speed them up it slows them down. 

As with your car its about removing what is necessary and understanding how that thing you've removed impact the car. 

 

Removing any leaves from this op plant would be like removing the steering wheel, wheels, and gearbox because the driver felt they were getting in the way. Anyone with a bit of knowledge on the subject would say that's crazy. Those are all essential to making the car go.

 

 

Op. Your plant literally could be any more open. Can't be any less crowded than a single stem 

[latitude54]

Ok so what I’ve learned from this thread is that I’ve read too much of the wrong information on random websites. And also that I’ve been massively overthinking things. 
 

Glad I asked rather than just doing it.  
 

oh… btw, I drive a BMW so the indicator stalk could be removed without any negative affect.   

Edited August 14, 2022 by latitude54

[QFMAC]

11 hours ago, blackpoolbouncer said:

 

If your looking at that and thinking "this need less leaves" your looking at it well wrong.

You literally can't get away with removing a single leaf tbh. It's a single stem plant with few leaves. Not a 4 foot wide bush with 100 colas.

 

@QFMAC bad analogy. You may remove parts from your car for those reasons but when your talking about plants removing bits doesn't speed them up it slows them down. 

As with your car its about removing what is necessary and understanding how that thing you've removed impact the car. 

 

Removing any leaves from this op plant would be like removing the steering wheel, wheels, and gearbox because the driver felt they were getting in the way. Anyone with a bit of knowledge on the subject would say that's crazy. Those are all essential to making the car go.

 

 

Op. Your plant literally could be any more open. Can't be any less crowded than a single stem 

It wasn't a real analogy, it was tongue in cheek, hense my emoji. There are times when removing leaves is beneficial imo. I know you know your stuff but comparing car analogies is not the best way to express it to a newbie. I could have the same cylinders but use better materials, I could iincrease bore and stroke and so on. My point is, to say to a newbie it shouldn't be done is misleading imo. This plant needs all the leaves it has but there are those times when defoliation is helpful. Air movement, mold prevention, help lower buds sites to reach the top and so on. I know you know but a newbie should not be told there is only one path to the top of a mountain. 

[QFMAC]

I forgot to mention careful defoliation also redirects the plants energy to the tops and reduces lower larf. 

[Military Grade]

Proof is in the pudding

Before, (ignore the word after, that mean after the trimming from my diary)

 

less than 12hrs later

 

amazing how much the tips decided to grow after i cut all the lower crap off, they were developing so slow up until i did that. They realy took of after that

 

 

I should add that i also think op shouldn't touch his plants going of the pics, my post is purely for the defoliation argument

Edited August 14, 2022 by Military Grade

[blackpoolbouncer]

@Military Grade they have done that because of the training and diversion of auxins. You've correlated cause and effect wrong there and it's more to do with the biological process going on in the plant. 

 

To illustrate. If you let those leaders grow up and remove all lower bumph in the same way you would actually severely slow growth down. Because in your picture the canopy is flat all tips at that level recieve a share of auxins proportional to leaf and stem mass. Removing essentially half the canopy diverts all plant energy into the remaining tips. Think of you main trunk as hosepipe feeding outlets. More outlets(growing tips) it feed the less each one gets. Remove half the outlets and suddenly the remaining outlets gain a 50 boost as what's going in underground has grown proportionally to what's above and is set up to supply more mass that what the plant has after its had matter removed. Hence why you see what you do. You would actually see faster growth if you just removed the side shoots rather than the fan leaves too. That way those leaders you have left wpukd have extra solar panels soaking up that expensive light you pay for rather than giving the compost a sun tan. 

 

So for example of the ops plant. Removing anything from that will significantly slow it down

 

@QFMAC I was talking with the op in mind seeing as that who was asking the question and I answered with specific advice pertaining to that specific plant. I didn't set anything in stone for any newbies or say nobody should ever removing anything ever.

You've read it wrong, it's why it is written as if im talking to the op. Because I was, and the advice stands. You can't afford to remove a single leaf from that plant.

 

Never mind all the weird and wonderful scenarios or bushy af plants that could benefit. 

95% of defolitation is see that is done is done in a misguided way or without proper understanding of the impact it has. 

 

Careful pruning has its place. Defoliation is horseshit. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by blackpoolbouncer

[Hombre del Monte]

13 minutes ago, blackpoolbouncer said:

Defoliation is horseshit. 

Love it!, that's seem pretty clear then. 

[Oldman2.0]

@blackpoolbouncer Just making sure I'm taken this in right. The fan leafs are the solar panels, so basically they absorb all the lights energy, and should be kept, other than careful pruning, so instead remove some side shoots, and keep'n the fan leafs is better use of the lights, and better growth, and efficiency, thanks 

[blackpoolbouncer]

1 minute ago, Oldman2.0 said:

@blackpoolbouncer Just making sure I'm taken this in right. The fan leafs are the solar panels, so basically they absorb all the lights energy, and should be kept, other than careful pruning, so instead remove some side shoots, and keep'n the fan leafs is better use of the lights, and better growth, and efficiency, thanks 

Wash woah woah. When talking of removing side shoots I was talking about millitarys plant. 

It's very much as you see about understanding your plant. Each plant is different. 

There aren't many times Id recommend removing side shoots. 

Military has manifolded that so his side shoots are a hindrance to his technique and what he's trying to achieve. 

Fwiw I wouldnt advocate what he's done. 

I'd have removed nothing from day 1 except perhaps nipped the main tip out at 5th node. Trained in much the same way but utilise those lowers and have a plant 4 week into flower and without a single spot of light hitting the floor by the same point as those photos but we all do things differently.

 

There's no right or wrong as such with almost anything we do but what we can do is understand our plants and what our inputs do to them. Helps you work with them rather than against them. 

[blackpoolbouncer]

16 minutes ago, Hombre del Monte said:

Love it!, that's seem pretty clear then. 

 yes mate. 

I'll go in 2 or three weeks before the end and take out some lower fans that are inward facing and have served their purpose just to open up the lowers. Few here and there. 

Nothing comes off except perhaps an underskirt trim if I'm feeling fancy in the first couple weeks but again. Not needed 

 

If your growing really squat bushy indicas it's a bit different but again it's about recognising what a plant needs.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by blackpoolbouncer

[Oldman2.0]

@blackpoolbouncer My 4 at present I picked as similar, as I could, so all more indica dominant, cold climate, and around same finish time, thanks for that info