forest dog Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 As these are all concept of society, it would follow that to an extent its the society you live in that shapes your political views. That said I do think as you get older you tend to analyse things and alter your views to take into account other factors. I grew up in a predominantly white middle class area and was raised surrounded by fairly right wing thinking people. I'll admit that as a youth I just accepted that as being correct without really understanding it. As I got to see a bit of the world and broadened my horizons, my personal concepts shifted further and further to the left, to the extent that I can't even speak to a lot of the people that I grew up with now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nu Jerzey Devil Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 (edited) Anyone who agrees with basic tory ideology is selfish, because basic tory ideology is selfish. Anyone who belongs to the tory party and doesn't agree with basic tory ideology is, frankly, a bit of an idiot. Take it you will be voting Labour then booj, when it comes down to it though could you really see ed milliband as a prime minister? I could see him being bag boy for camerons bullingdon club but not leading the country, hes not got what it takes, plus we voted out labour due to tony and brown being so bad there is no point going back to those days where we are at war and back destabilizing countries.... fuck that, abit of austerity is nothing compared to fighting wars Edited March 22, 2015 by Nu Jerzey Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Charlie Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Sorry Boojum. I normally lap up your content but I'm not liking this thread. You've quite clearly set the agenda for how your highly slanted thread is going to go right from the start. You're telling people off for slightly veering off-topic. You're ostensibly inviting debate and alternative views but you've quite clearly made your mind up already and are simply waiting for friends to turn up and agree with you. If anyone dares to put forth the view that the Tories are anything other than sociopathic minions of Satan then you'll blast the fuck out of them with all the arguments you already have lined up. Anyone with a differing view will fuck off out of the thread and it will just end up a circle-jerk of self righteous anti-Tory vitriol. You insist on maintaining a 20,000 feet overview of the Tory ideology, making it impossible for anyone to argue against you really. You dismiss people who might consider voting for them as "idiots" but you won't take into account individual experience. Whether we like it or not, some working class people have seen their prospects improve under this government, while others have been fucked over. Some parts of the NHS have been sold off, but others have seen investment and improvement. Some people on Benefits have been hounded and made destitute by ATOS and the Bedroom Tax, whilst others have been saved from homelessness. Some Tory councils are rotten and high-handed, while others are progressive and have made really positive changes. It's paradoxical, it's entirely subjective and it certainly isn't as black hat/white hat as you are painting it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughie Green Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 "That is why no amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were." Aneurin Bevan 1948 The more things change the more they stay the same. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 Take it you will be voting Labour then booj, when it comes down to it though could you really see ed milliband as a prime minister? I could see him being bag boy for camerons bullingdon club but not leading the country, hes not got what it takes, plus we voted out labour due to tony and brown being so bad there is no point going back to those days where we are at war and back destabilizing countries.... fuck that, abit of austerity is nothing compared to fighting wars I certainly won't be voting Labour, they currently occupy the same centre-right position as moderate Conservatives, there's absolutely fuck all left wing or socialist about the Labour party and hasn't been since Tory Blair. Sorry Boojum. I normally lap up your content but I'm not liking this thread. You've quite clearly set the agenda for how your highly slanted thread is going to go right from the start. You're telling people off for slightly veering off-topic. You're ostensibly inviting debate and alternative views but you've quite clearly made your mind up already and are simply waiting for friends to turn up and agree with you. If anyone dares to put forth the view that the Tories are anything other than sociopathic minions of Satan then you'll blast the fuck out of them with all the arguments you already have lined up. Anyone with a differing view will fuck off out of the thread and it will just end up a circle-jerk of self righteous anti-Tory vitriol. You insist on maintaining a 20,000 feet overview of the Tory ideology, making it impossible for anyone to argue against you really. You dismiss people who might consider voting for them as "idiots" but you won't take into account individual experience. Whether we like it or not, some working class people have seen their prospects improve under this government, while others have been fucked over. Some parts of the NHS have been sold off, but others have seen investment and improvement. Some people on Benefits have been hounded and made destitute by ATOS and the Bedroom Tax, whilst others have been saved from homelessness. Some Tory councils are rotten and high-handed, while others are progressive and have made really positive changes. It's paradoxical, it's entirely subjective and it certainly isn't as black hat/white hat as you are painting it. I'm not stopping anyone from expressing their opinions. I've expressed mine - that traditional tory politics are based on self-interest. I've backed that opinion up with examples - if you genuinely think that the destruction of the NHS is in any way, shape or form about anything other than rank self-interest then I would be interested to hear your arguments as to why - how will the destruction of the NHS benefit the poor and sick, those least able to look after themselves ? Yes, I have made my mind up about the difference between left wing and right wing ideology. I find them to be pretty self-evident. But by all means disagree. I'm not the boss of this thread, I just started it, if people disagree I'm not stopping them. Fill your boots, everyone has the right to an opinon, if I disagree I will but I'm not stopping anyone from saying what they think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Kruger Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 Anyone who agrees with basic tory ideology is selfish, because basic tory ideology is selfish. Anyone who belongs to the tory party and doesn't agree with basic tory ideology is, frankly, a bit of an idiot. ok thanks for that... just wow. I dont vote but I think ill leave the thread there before it gets to being a shitfest... Sorry Boojum. I normally lap up your content but I'm not liking this thread. You've quite clearly set the agenda for how your highly slanted thread is going to go right from the start. You're telling people off for slightly veering off-topic. You're ostensibly inviting debate and alternative views but you've quite clearly made your mind up already and are simply waiting for friends to turn up and agree with you. If anyone dares to put forth the view that the Tories are anything other than sociopathic minions of Satan then you'll blast the fuck out of them with all the arguments you already have lined up. Anyone with a differing view will fuck off out of the thread and it will just end up a circle-jerk of self righteous anti-Tory vitriol. You insist on maintaining a 20,000 feet overview of the Tory ideology, making it impossible for anyone to argue against you really. You dismiss people who might consider voting for them as "idiots" but you won't take into account individual experience. Whether we like it or not, some working class people have seen their prospects improve under this government, while others have been fucked over. Some parts of the NHS have been sold off, but others have seen investment and improvement. Some people on Benefits have been hounded and made destitute by ATOS and the Bedroom Tax, whilst others have been saved from homelessness. Some Tory councils are rotten and high-handed, while others are progressive and have made really positive changes. It's paradoxical, it's entirely subjective and it certainly isn't as black hat/white hat as you are painting it. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted March 22, 2015 Author Share Posted March 22, 2015 ok thanks for that... just wow. I dont vote but I think ill leave the thread there before it gets to being a shitfest... +1 No shitfest here. What have I said that is wrong ? Basic tory ideology is selfish, it's about self-interest. It's about lower taxes, less welfare, the end of the NHS. Am I wrong about that ? I don't think I am. So if you agree with tory ideology then you agree with the above. Which, in my opinion is selfish. If you don't agree with that basic tory ideology and are a member of the tory party then I'm sorry, that makes you an idiot - if you join a political party without agreeing with their basic principles then I'm sorry, you're an idiot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Theokoles Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Its about greed and power during modernity..its a race, rush who can fuck over who the fastest for the most profit, a dog eat gog world where only the strong survive. The mentality of private schooling for boys at Eton, Harrow, Oxbridge Cambridge etc is extremely competitive, lots of peer pressure, plus a need and must to impress mummy and daddy. You are a product of your environment, Kane or Abel? Think it was forest dog mentioned about the distance created by this environment and how it affects personal relationships, i imagine people distance themselves..veer towards like minded people (wrongly in many occasions) Im not saying this is a tory mentality but private schooling festers this attitude. Trouble is, its a lonely world for many, isolated from real feelings, void of true connections.. Waffling . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Theokoles Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Sorry it was wildbill that made the point first i tried making about separation, segregation i suppose. At 15 -20 your rebelling against your parents as it is, plus you've got peer pressure, those who dont or cant tell mummy or daddy they dont like private school are considered wimpy and to just get on with it. So i imagine many privately educated kids although get good quality education in the traditional sense, still doesn't prepare you for the real world, much like public schools in that sense, although most would have parents to come home to or life long friends to confide in. Getting shipped of to private school cant be very nice at 13 yrs old. I know theirs a point here somewhere.. lots of interesting questions this raises about nature nurture etc and one i was only talking to Mrs T about the other day and thats personal responsibility and our ability or lack of it, defense mechanisms and coping strategies. I guess to have empathy, you have to unlearn any selfish traits or behaviors you have. Probably one of the hardest things to change. My own personal experience which i shouldn't use to prove a point, i cant be bias or judgmental but i can give an insight from my personal experience, i would say being raised in care and suffering much abuse made me shut of, detached and selfish. Just like a private school boy i imagine. The only difference is one was taught by a school the other was a learned defense mechanism of self protection (preservation) ie everybody's out to use, abuse, and manipulate me..not paranoid it was factual, although beyond my comprehension as a youngster. I guess after years of shitty treatment you learn to empathize with others, become more compassionate and understanding because you hate injustice suffering and selfishness that you were made to feel. There will probably always be a measure of selfishness in me that i cant, change, maybe not so much selfish but arrogance or steadfastness (actually i call it courage, fortitude and an indomitable human spirit) a big fuck off to to those who have tried to break me again and again. Maybe that strength comes from being partly raise by my Nan (early years) who didn't molly coddle me, and i was loved but taught to be self sufficient from an early age..so i had an inner strength that made me somehow find courage to fight back against oppression, discrimination and injustice...even if you dont see these things happening to you or understand them at the time, like a boxer on the ropes you will find a way out of the corner you have been backed into, either physically or psychologically, but it could take years of understanding to break free from mental slavery.. Weather or not i was born selfish or empathic i dont know but my environment certainly fostered or enhanced certain personality traits, which have taken years to even partly understand. Change isnt easy though. Maybe ive answered one question here..maybe not im probably just talking utter shite Edited March 23, 2015 by Theokoles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoned Whale Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 (edited) Definitely learned. I grew up in a home where families on both sides of my parents were all self employed, farmers on one side and trades men on the other. Always grew up with them voting Tory cos it was better for small businesses. Definitely a selfish attitude but they never spoke much about politics or knew much or took much interest. I remember being 15 odd arguing about politics, that the Tory's were better because of the economic balancing etc and I used to repeat the same crap about small businesses and other stuff my parents used to say. Around this time I used to argue with my parents about politics constantly. Didn't take long til I was calling them cunts for voting Tory etc. Wasnt long after that I actually learnt about politics and the parties and took an interest and slowly diverted furthur and furthur left til you realise UK politics is a sham and as an empathy based, liberal minded person you have no one worth voting for. Don't think it's anything at all do with your genes, nonsense that. Edited March 23, 2015 by Stoned Whale 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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