Theology discussion split from French Massacre thread

[Guest Cool Bananas]

@@JamieThePainter

thats the thing if you have been told this for years say then you pray for X in it happens that to you is a sign (very simple version i know)a very real sign ,only the premise is flawed to start with ,but if that premise has been ingrained since you where a kid it all makes sense

im sure people dont just decide one day im going to beleive in this thing ....they have reasons to beleive or to continue to beleive

thats why i dont call them names etc .....the idea though thats fully open to a critical look

I was indoctrinated with Christianity. Spanish/ Irish with roman catholic schooling. By the time I was 10 I knew it was all a load of total bullshit!

[JamieThePainter]

I'm not so sure, bazzad. A good friend of mine was an atheist for 24 years of his life, right up until his wife was killed in a car crash.

"I don't care what you call me, I believe now. I'd lose my fucking mind if I thought that I wouldn't ever see my Julie again."

I thought about suggesting that perhaps he already had, but that would have been poor form. I hugged him and wished him well in his hope. Religion can be a cunt, but people can also find a lot of solace in it.

[Guest Cool Bananas]

I'm not so sure, bazzad. A good friend of mine was an atheist for 24 years of his life, right up until his wife was killed in a car crash.

"I don't care what you call me, I believe now. I'd lose my fucking mind if I thought that I wouldn't ever see my Julie again."

I thought about suggesting that perhaps he already had, but that would have been poor form. I hugged him and wished him well in his hope. Religion can be a cunt, but people can also find a lot of solace in it.

wise choice!

[Guest jacks lad]

son of an old friend of mine had a life threatening motor cycle accident, dad was religious and he prayed for his sons recovery, he talked to god begging him to let his son live, he never came out the coma and died, dad will tell you there aint no god, i never did believe and this confirmed my none belief

[Guest bazzad9]

I was indoctrinated with Christianity. Spanish/ Irish with roman catholic schooling. By the time I was 10 I knew it was all a load of total bullshit!

yes for sure plenty dont go that route mate but many do

glad you got out

[JamieThePainter]

son of an old friend of mine had a life threatening motor cycle accident, dad was religious and he prayed for his sons recovery, he talked to god begging him to let his son live, he never came out the coma and died, dad will tell you there aint no god, i never did believe and this confirmed my none belief

I'm an atheist myself, but to rule out the possibility of a God just because he didn't save someone - even though you asked him really nicely - is a bit petty. Praying to a God to do things for you is to suggest that you can change his mind. Seeing as he's supposed to be infallible, then that shouldn't be a possibility, eh?

[Guest bazzad9]

I'm not so sure, bazzad. A good friend of mine was an atheist for 24 years of his life, right up until his wife was killed in a car crash.

"I don't care what you call me, I believe now. I'd lose my fucking mind if I thought that I wouldn't ever see my Julie again."

I thought about suggesting that perhaps he already had, but that would have been poor form. I hugged him and wished him well in his hope. Religion can be a cunt, but people can also find a lot of solace in it.

i didnt say all mate

but yes some to come to it via other routes ,usually the minority

religion makes a promise that sounds good given is situation ,,,,understandable thing to gravitate to

ive always made a distinction here as well ,for example the little old lady who's life revolves around the church is a very important and good thing for them ,and for others ,charity etc

[Guest bazzad9]

son of an old friend of mine had a life threatening motor cycle accident, dad was religious and he prayed for his sons recovery, he talked to god begging him to let his son live, he never came out the coma and died, dad will tell you there aint no god, i never did believe and this confirmed my none belief

that is a good point ....what if though through whatever means he was cured .....would that not be seen as a sign for god

it could be seen as failry rational ,sons ill ,pray ,he is fixed

within the framework of religion that would be a big sign (given the premise) obviously i wouldnt agree

but imagine you have been told this all your life ,it actually happens for you from your prayers that would be a strong thing to overcome ,it would take a lot to want to look at it critically

[Guest bazzad9]

I'm an atheist myself, but to rule out the possibility of a God just because he didn't save someone - even though you asked him really nicely - is a bit petty. Praying to a God to do things for you is to suggest that you can change his mind. Seeing as he's supposed to be infallible, then that shouldn't be a possibility, eh?

i am an agnostic atheist and will argue the point

but heres the thing a diest god i dont really have an argument for .i mean we still lack the evidence but who says a diest god would leave any .....lots of arguments work for a diest god (or work much better) its this leap from a god to the christian ,muslim god that fails they are clearly made up

[JamieThePainter]

i am an agnostic atheist and will argue the point

but heres the thing a diest god i dont really have an argument for .i mean we still lack the evidence but who says a diest god would leave any .....lots of arguments work for a diest god (or work much better) its this leap from a god to the christian ,muslim god that fails they are clearly made up

I think most atheists are agnostic to a degree, otherwise they're just as closed-minded as they undoubtedly claim the religious are. For this reason I don't bother wasting the time adding the agnostic part to it.

I'm not sure where you're arguing my point though.

[Guest bazzad9]

@@JamieThePainter

im not arguing your point mate the diest stuff just came to mind

[*DJ*]

there's far to much sick and nonreligious stuff going on round the world in the name of religion, it sort of mocks religion, if that makes sense? someone films someone else cutting off a third mans head? mass murder? bombs? children running round with guns bigger than themselves? hows that holy? this is both sides mind, not just one, there's far to much death and destruction going on in the name of religion on all sides, there's 30 odd pages of people with (lets face it) no personal experience of religious extremism, apart from what they read or see on tv, from the comfort of their own home, arguing about religious extremists and the stuff they do, obviously if im wrong and we have a few eye witnesses fresh back from the middle east, paris even? pipe up please! imo its all a crock of shyt!

dj...

[YoLo]

It's a shame Nick Clegg couldn't deliver his declared politics as well as he delivers in this piece from today's Telegraph:

The way we describe the world is changing. The old labels - East and West; Left and Right; market and state – are increasingly irrelevant in a fluid, globalised world. The future faultlines in politics, both nationally and internationally, will not be ones of geography or ideology or wealth. They will be divisions between those societies that are open and those that are closed. The horrific attack in France this week was an attempt to close down our societies, to close down minds, and to close down free expression. It was an assault not just on journalists and cartoonists but on the values of free speech, public dispute and openness which those professions embody. It was an attack on the very heart of an open, liberal society.

Sadly, attacks like these can lead governments, sometimes with the best of intentions, to introduce measures in the name of public safety that undermine the very freedoms we cherish, and which our enemies despise. Which is why, at moments like these, amid the understandable clamour that ‘something be done’, the liberal instinct against knee-jerk authoritarianism is something we would be well-advised to heed.

Every so often we are confronted by events that force each of us to take a clear stand - and a side. The attack on the offices of Charlie Hebdo was just such a moment, demanding a straight answer to a simple question: “are you Charlie?” You don’t have to agree with everything, or even anything, that Charlie Hebdo published to “be Charlie” – you only have to wish to protect the freedoms and rights that define liberal societies like ours.

Liberalism is a set of values - a belief in freedom and equality before the law - that needs to be defended and explained, fearlessly and without qualification. In a multicultural society like ours, it is our shared values, not our national symbols, that ultimately bind us. Our open society is a precious thing. Only by being clear about those values and why they benefit all of us collectively will we expose an important truth: that the overwhelming majority of British citizens, of all faiths and backgrounds, would not hesitate to declare “Je suis Charlie.”

The debate about the limits of free speech is an old one, which we need now as much as ever. It is complex but I am clear where I stand - with the actor Rowan Atkinson, who once said “to criticise a person for their race is manifestly irrational and ridiculous. But to criticize their religion, that is a freedom, a right.” Nor, as he explained, is it a frivolous right, a licence to “gob off” but rather that “the freedom to criticise ideas, any ideas, even if they are sincerely held beliefs, is one of the fundamental freedoms of society.”

The freedom that allows someone to criticise an idea - even a religious idea - is the same freedom that allows others to promote it. We are all free to agree or disagree, believe or disbelieve, support or oppose. That we in Britain can do so, usually in a spirit of tolerance, makes us a beacon for the world’s oppressed.

Atkinson’s comments were provoked by the last Labour Government conflating race and religion in an attempt to reduce hate crimes back in 2004. But all governments are capable of trampling on free speech, which is why in 2013 my party forced the repeal of Section 5 of the Public Order Act which criminalised the use of “insulting words” that cause “alarm or distress.” Section 5 was used to arrest demonstrators in Trafalgar Square for wearing T-shirts depicting the Danish cartoons, and to prosecute someone who described scientology as a “dangerous cult.”

Some of those who died on Wednesday had drawn cartoons which they knew were offensive to others. But no one ever deserves to be killed just because they have caused offence. This is the bottom line: in a free society people have to be free to offend each other. There is no such thing as a right not to be offended. You cannot have freedom unless people are free to offend each other.

None of this is simple. The same laws that allow satirists to ridicule Islamists allow Islamists (and other extremists) to promote their views. When extremists incite violence or promote terrorism, the criminal law is the right response. But when they peacefully express views which the majority of people find odious, we need to remember what is at stake. Free speech cannot just be for people we agree with. If it is to mean anything, free speech has to be for everyone.

As this debate plays out we should remember that, in the end, we will win this struggle not by increasing our security but by protecting our liberty. This was an attack on who we are and the values we hold. Now, more than ever, we must fend off the forces of hatred, intolerance and division. We must stand up for our values and ensure our society remains open rather than closed. If we abandon or qualify our liberties, then we will have lost the struggle.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11334000/We-must-always-be-free-to-criticise-ideas-like-Islam.html

[YoLo]

@@JamieThePainter

im not arguing your point mate the diest stuff just came to mind

To return your pedantry Baz - Deist, not Diest.

[Guest bazzad9]

To return your pedantry Baz - Deist, not Diest.

i knew it didnt look right