Goodbye 2nd Law of thermodynamics ?

[ratdog]

No the heat is being converted into electricity and the motion of the ions is kept constant by the ambient temperature, the main point being that there is no limit on the energy provided as this ionic 'thermal motion' (movement induced by temperature) goes on and on.

I still don`t see how it goes against the 2nd law, it`s not perpetual in the usual sense, there is an external energy at play

[MED]

It's exciting. very early days yet.

As with so many exciting tech advances it takes forever to get to market. even more so when it threatens the status quo for big business.

They might never get the voltage or current strong enough for bigger needs also.

the 2nd law of thermodynamics means it should stop making electricity and things should equalize out. Something is going on at the sub atomic level that is changing that and giving us, in the end, electricity from ambient air temperature??

Edited March 18, 2013 by MED

[Degsy]

When did this section change to include POLITICS ? Just noticed that , doesn't really seem to go with Theology , Metaphysics & Philosophy

[nibblebit]

I still don`t see how it goes against the 2nd law, it`s not perpetual in the usual sense, there is an external energy at play

In the link i posted earlier it explains it :

hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html

The part of the second law that relates to heat engines says this :

"No (heat) engine whose working fluid undergoes a cycle can absorb heat from a single reservoir, deliver an equivalent amount of work, and deliver no other effect"

So the setup we are discussing does exactly what the law says it shouldn't do.

Cheers,

DC.

[Hiphip]

Just wait until HIKO sees this. He will know. Batteries are his forte see. PM Hiko nibs and get his mind working.

Cheers

[nibblebit]

Just wait until HIKO sees this. He will know. Batteries are his forte see. PM Hiko nibs and get his mind working.

Cheers

Will do pal.

I'm looking into replicating an experiment that seems to run on the same principle, but done in the 1920's, it's very simple and not very costly to set up, just two electrodes in a solution of sodium carbonate, example three in this simple patent :

exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Exp%e9riences/Piles/N%20Vasilesco-Karpen%20-%20Pile%20permanente%20-%20FR577087A% 20en.pdf

Cheers,

nibs.

[ratdog]

Ah well, i`m still not convinced, but i`m sure Strawberry will put me straight

[nibblebit]

Ah well, i`m still not convinced, but i`m sure Strawberry will put me straight

I'll post a video of it when i replicate the experiment referenced in my post above yours.

I know you're not convinced that it works yet, but do you see why the experimenters think it contradicts the 2nd law if it does work now ?

atb,

nibs.

[ratdog]

I know you're not convinced that it works yet, but do you see why the experimenters think it contradicts the 2nd law if it does work now ?

No mate.

here`s a comment from the first link, do you understand this and what do you think?

Yes, it is a kind of Maxwell Demon.

We don't have more details in the article, but in principle there is no violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, because the system is really acting on those sufficiently energetic and oriented Cu ions selected (or filtered by the design).

This selection also occurs in crystallization and in molecular biology where only certain nutrients (e.g. oxygen, not nitrogen from the lungs) are taken up.

As technology gets to ever smaller scales there will be ever more effective Maxwell demons devised.

[Guest bazzad9]

Ah well, i`m still not convinced, but i`m sure Strawberry will put me straight

Not convinced either mate

Its still being reveiwed for a start ,

But I dont see how the 2nd law is broken , the solution would eventually run out of thermal energy apart from the ambient heat around it stopping it from doing so , I think the breakthrough is finding something that can make use of this ambient heat that we couldnt tap into before

We are surrounded by this heat we cant make use of , if this thing works now we can

They use internal medical devices as an example , im guessing rather than a usual battery that will run out , this new one will recharge simply from body heat

Thats my take anyway , I will look again when ive had a sit down

We need strawberry

[Guest bazzad9]

I get the idea of maxwell demon , if this is how it works , if it does

I cant grasp how the demon at the door would actually work,

[strawberry]

We need strawberry

I think ratdog and you are doing fine without my stumbling in.

I don't think I'll be writing any goodbye speeches just yet....

[NattyFido2]

This sounds to me like a very efficient Peltier heat pump, capable of generating a voltage from a very small temperature difference, or, this is to Peltiers heat pumps what superconductors are to copper wire!

Natty

[Hughie Green]

"(movement induced by temperature) goes on and on" The temperature is an energy input is it not.

[nibblebit]

The second law says that entropy doesn't decrease.

Speaking of Maxwell's Demon, let's try a simple thought experiment and we can come to a better understanding of it.

If this setup were to be isolated from the environment (no thermal input) and we used it to charge a capacitor, the temperature of the setup would decrease (loss of energy).

So the energy is conserved, but the heat is totally converted into useable work (the charged capacitor).

This is a decrease in entropy, so it (if it works) opposes the 2nd law.

So, even if you aren't convinced that it works (and i agree, we shouldn't be until we can hold it in our hands and see it operate), i hope you can understand the principle upon which the inventors say it does work.

All the best,

nibs.