nibblebit Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) The 2nd law of thermo has already been seen to breakdown on the quantum level, this is now in standard textbooks. In this new battery we have the possibility to break the law on our everyday level. The results are still being peer-reviewed. physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/mar/08/graphene-in-new-battery-breakthrough nibs. Edited March 18, 2013 by nibblebit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cultivateur Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) For the benefit of a non-physicist, could you please explain what you mean by breaking the second law of thermodynamics as there's no mention in the article. Interesting forum to put this in ... Edited March 18, 2013 by cultivateur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nibblebit Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 For the benefit of a non-physicist, could you please explain what you mean by breaking the second law of thermodynamics as there's no mention in the article. Interesting forum to put this in ... It just means that if you have a hot object next to a cold object, the heat naturally flows from the hot to the cold until a temperature balance is reached. This video explains it but you might want to mute the audio as it's coldplay I put it here because any form of energy that challenges oil is political. All the best, nibs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambium Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 The comments from the article seem to suggest that there is no violation of the 2nd, but I know fuck all about this, so if someone can explain it at imbecile level, that'd be cool. I did see this about graphene super capacitors the other day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cultivateur Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 A quick skim suggested it was in effect something a bit like a heat pump - making use of low level heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shitead Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I've decided lately that physics just doesn't work for me, i was watching mythbusters the other day for example, they asked "If you shove some pigeons in a van and they all fly about at the same time, does the van get lighter as the birds are not on the floor?" Well its obvious to me that of course the van gets lighter, its just PLAIN obvious, but oh no, using physics and this stuff called maffs? they reckon the van still weighs the same! Physics corrupts the mind. It reduces common sense to a bewildering muddle of crazy theories. That feels better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boojum Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I like fizzics - the science of carbonated drinks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cultivateur Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nibblebit Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 The comments from the article seem to suggest that there is no violation of the 2nd, but I know fuck all about this, so if someone can explain it at imbecile level, that'd be cool. I did see this about graphene super capacitors the other day. Those supercaps look great. A quick skim suggested it was in effect something a bit like a heat pump - making use of low level heat. Yes, it's a heat engine : hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/seclaw.html Firstly, you have a container of water with copper chloride. A chloride is a mixture of chlorine with another material, in this case copper. An ion is a charged atom or molecule, it can be negatively or positively charged. In a watery solution such as our copper-chloride solution, ions bounce around at hundreds of metres per second at normal room temperature (20C). So, these ions already have energy, and the larger our container of water, the more ions, the more potential energy to be tapped. It turns out (according to these experimenters) that a strip of graphene (carbon, only 1 atom thick !) with one gold and one silver electrode, acts like a battery, converting all of the ionic energy into electricity, but without the normal chemical reaction we get in a battery. All the best, DC. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdog Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 It just means that if you have a hot object next to a cold object, the heat naturally flows from the hot to the cold until a temperature balance is reached. But isn`t that what`s happening? the ambient temp is higher than the battery and therefore the 2nd law stays intact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nibblebit Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 I've decided lately that physics just doesn't work for me, i was watching mythbusters the other day for example, they asked "If you shove some pigeons in a van and they all fly about at the same time, does the van get lighter as the birds are not on the floor?" Well its obvious to me that of course the van gets lighter, its just PLAIN obvious, but oh no, using physics and this stuff called maffs? they reckon the van still weighs the same! Physics corrupts the mind. It reduces common sense to a bewildering muddle of crazy theories. That feels better Mythbusters annoys me, they get things wrong all the time and never go deep enough. There actually are minute changes in the containers weight, this is a classical physics example in many textbooks. Did the mythbusters account for airflow ? This is the main reason there is very little change in the container weight, the air pressure from the flapping of the birds wings, pushing down on the floor of the container. If you had a container with a non-solid floor, like a mesh, it would be meaningfully lighter. So you ARE fine with physics, it just needs to be explained in a good way. All the best, nibs. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nibblebit Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 But isn`t that what`s happening? the ambient temp is higher than the battery and therefore the 2nd law stays intact No because a heat engine normally loses heat to the environment, this setup uses the heat without thermic losses. DC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shitead Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Nope, physics are for smart people to confuse the thick, i'm sure of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdog Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 No because a heat engine normally loses heat to the environment, this setup uses the heat without thermic losses. DC. That just means a heat engine is inefficient though, the energy is still following the hot-cold route Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nibblebit Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) Nope, physics are for smart people to confuse the thick, i'm sure of it. Classical physics is just common sense, if a physicist can't explain something to you in everyday terms then he/she doesn't understand it well enough themselves. But you're right, there is a bit of elitism in a lot of scientists. That just means a heat engine is inefficient though, the energy is still following the hot-cold route No the heat is being converted into electricity and the motion of the ions is kept constant by the ambient temperature, the main point being that there is no limit on the energy provided as this ionic 'thermal motion' (movement induced by temperature) goes on and on. I'm really excited by this, an infinte battery, imagine the cost-savings to our grows This isn't all that new, here's something from a Romanian scientist in the 1920's : exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Exp%e9riences/Piles/N%20Vasilesco-Karpen%20-%20Pile%20permanente%20-%20FR577087A%20en.pdf DC. Edited March 18, 2013 by nibblebit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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