Question for any science/physicists here.

[tico cervantes]

In the Determinist universe when the animal interacts with the environment he hits that pebble lying on the ground with x force applied in y direction causing a z reaction in the pebble. Run that again and the same result occurs, the same ant is trodden on, the same indent left in the earth, the same disturbance of the molecules in the air ....

In a chaotic universe the animal turns slightly as it walks and stnds on the peble and not the ant because it has free will.

Cheers tico.

[nop]

but not being able to predict something doesn't mean that is an example of randomness!

similarly it doesn't mean it's not an example of randomness either ..in fact there is no way to know for sure either way ..it could be lack of information or it could be that some things are entirely unpredictable/random ..impossible to say for sure

btw is it really necessary to keep telling me that I don't understand ..if you don't want me to post in your thread just say & I'll stop

Edited September 1, 2012 by nop

[Hir]

but not being able to predict something doesn't mean that is an example of randomness!

similarly it doesn't mean it's not an example of randomness either ..in fact there is no way to know for sure either way ..it could be lack of information or it could be that some things are entirely unpredictable/random ..impossible to say for sure

btw is it really necessary to keep telling me that I don't understand ..if you don't want me to post in your thread just say & I'll stop

What, so if your factually incorrect you don't want anyone to say anything, right got ya!

[nop]

What, so if your factually incorrect you don't want anyone to say anything, right got ya!

not at all, but it would be better if you just quote the part you think is wrong and then ask a some clarifying questions or explain why you think its wrong with a few counter examples

btw there is nothing factual about determinism/randomness its all up for discussion

Edited September 1, 2012 by nop

[Guest bazzad9]

if im understanding the question right (migraine coming on again) its boils down to for example a coin toss ,to us its entirely random for each single toss,but if we knew the velocity angle etc and could calculate it quick enough we could predict it every time ,so what appears random to us given enough info or power to compute it it would be predictable

so the question is is every thing predictable given enough info and computing power ,even chaos theory and the uncertainty princible are not predictable to us but would they be with enough power?

that said though im sure i read regarding the coin toss that soon as it hits a surface and bounces it then becomes unpredictable ,but again that is from our viewpoint

so no real answers just making sure i was on the right track

[nop]

but if we knew the velocity angle etc and could calculate it quick enough we could predict it every time

so we should be able to build a machine that can do this? ...flip a coin to come up heads every time ...for decades and beyond

Edited September 1, 2012 by nop

[Guest bazzad9]

i would imagine in theory you could build that machine yes

you could probably do it by trial and error ,dial it in as it where

the only problem is can we measure and make the machine within tolerance to do it ,and without parts that would wear out over decades and slightly change the machine

there is only 3 outcomes for a coin toss so i would imagine it would be possible to make one

but that is not quite the same as predicting an actual coin toss on the fly as it where ,the speed to work out the predicted travel of the coin would be a big factor ,where a machine you could dial in as you went

[Guest bazzad9]

"Flipping a coin may not be the fairest way to settle disputes. About a decade ago, statistician Persi Diaconis started to wonder if the outcome of a coin flip really is just a matter of chance. He had Harvard University engineers build him a mechanical coin flipper. Diaconis, now at Stanford University, found that if a coin is launched exactly the same way, it lands exactly the same way.

The randomness in a coin toss, it appears, is introduced by sloppy humans. Each human-generated flip has a different height and speed, and is caught at a different angle, giving different outcomes.

But using high speed cameras and equations, Diaconis and colleagues have now found that even though humans are largely unpredictable coin flippers, there's still a bias built in: If a coin starts out heads, it ends up heads when caught more often than it does tails. NPR's David Kestenbaum reports.

*Note: In football's inaugural kickoff coin toss, the coin is not caught but allowed to bounce on the ground. That introduces an extra complication, one mathematicians have yet to sort out."

from here

h ttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1697475

Edited September 1, 2012 by bazzad9

[nop]

but that is not quite the same as predicting an actual coin toss on the fly as it where ,the speed to work out the predicted travel of the coin would be a big factor ,where a machine you could dial in as you went

agreed, but that is why I went for the relatively simpler idea of controlling the initial force that sends the coin into the air ..however over time the coin may change temperature, gather grime or wear down on the tails side from the impacts ..the machine would struggle to predict accurately after a while even in a sealed box

Edited September 1, 2012 by nop

[Guest bazzad9]

but that is not quite the same as predicting an actual coin toss on the fly as it where ,the speed to work out the predicted travel of the coin would be a big factor ,where a machine you could dial in as you went

agreed, but that is why I went for the relatively simpler idea of controlling the initial force that sends the coin into the air ..however over time the coin may change temperature, gather grime or wear down on the tails side from the impacts ..the machine would struggle to predict accurately after a while even in a sealed box

why does the doing it forever matter ?,if the coin changed you would just recalculate and start over

as i said this is a different problem from predicting a coin toss in real time ,they build a machine that will do what you said (minus the long time bit),as far as i know a machine that predicts an actual coin toss in real time has not been made ,its to fast to compute

so they are different things

[nop]

why does the doing it forever matter ?

not forever persay, but time matters because time effects predictability and not just because the machine will break down eventually

as i said this is a different problem from predicting a coin toss in real time ,they build a machine that will do what you said (minus the long time bit),as far as i know a machine that predicts an actual coin toss in real time has not been made ,its to fast to compute

so they are different things

even if a calculation cannot be done in real time ...it could be given the data and then take as long as it needs to calculate the outcome ..therefore solving the processing problem ..again there be would some discussion on how much data it would be allowed to see ..I went for the machine supplying the initial force to give the machine as much chance as possible to be right, as well as simplifying some of complexity involved

Edited September 1, 2012 by nop

[Guest bazzad9]

the machine that can flip a coin to the side of your choosing is an engineering problem

a machine that predicts a coin toss in real time is a completely different thing

in your example the machine would change over time and the results would change ,but that is only because it is running under preset conditions that dont change

in a coin toss the machine would need to calculate for ever toss independant of what the last outcome was

so to use your example of a machine that could toss heads every time for X amount of time ,the machine would need to calculate the toss everytime ,therefore allowing for things like the temp and wear and tear on the machine

so the question is could this machine be built ?

i would say yes ,with enough computing power ,you could measure the temp ,wind ,machine ,coin weight etc and calculate before every toss

[nop]

the machine that can flip a coin to the side of your choosing is an engineering problem

a machine that predicts a coin toss in real time is a completely different thing

they are completely different but both are still engineering problems that are attempting to predict the outcome of coin tosses ..so not that different

I don't see the relevance of a real-time calculation ..what does it matter how long it takes to calculate ..the input data does not change

in your example the machine would change over time and the results would change

because that is what happens in the real universe

,but that is only because it is running under preset conditions that dont change

Im assuming this part is a typo unless you care to explain how rolling change can come from pre-set constants

Edited September 1, 2012 by nop

[strawberry]

...please, bare with me...

...I am lying down...

Erm, I don't think I know you well enough for naked physics just yet....

"Scientists don't know everything" -- Werner Heisenberg.

Some people arguing against Determinism, that, if correct, shows we have no freewill, will use Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. The argument being that some Quantum Mechanics is an expression of probability rather than certainty. We cannot know the state of all things, there is uncertainty and therefore a possibility of freewill.

But just because we can't measure with certainty the velocity and position of a subatomic particle at anyone time and have to express the answer as partly a probability does this mean the subatomic particle does know it's two vectors. There is the assumption that because WE cannot measure precisely that there is no ultimate precision. Which I personally want to believe, it means I might have genuine freewill.

But is this true.

“As a rule,” said Holmes, “the more bizarre a thing is the less mysterious it proves to be. It is your commonplace, featureless crimes which are really puzzling, just as a commonplace face is the most difficult to identify. But I must be prompt over this matter.”

“What are you going to do, then?” I asked.

“To smoke,” he answered. “It is quite a three pipe problem, and I beg that you won’t speak to me for fifty minutes.” He curled himself up in his chair, with his thin knees drawn up to his hawk-like nose, and there he sat with his eyes closed and his black clay pipe thrusting out like the bill of some strange bird. I had come to the conclusion that he had dropped asleep, and indeed was nodding myself, when he suddenly sprang out of his chair with the gesture of a man who has made up his mind and put his pipe down upon the mantelpiece.

Damn it Watson, the man isn't asking about Heisenberg. He's really trying to determine if he should give up on something. He'll have already read about Bell's Theorem and the scientific arguments surrounding determinism. Now, let me fill my pipe and wonder what it is exactly that prompts a man to ask an unanswerable question....

[Guest bazzad9]

nop i started with the example of a coin toss in real time to us being a random event

i then said that given enough computing power we could predict the outcome everytime

you said that it would then be possible to build a machine that gives the same out come everytime

which we can

my example requires the machine to calculate every toss as it happens in real time

your example with the machine required for a coin to be tossed to heads say everytime .the two are not the same

we can build a machine that will toss heads everytime ,its just engineering ,once the machine is set to toss heads it will continue to do so untill something in the system changes ,like the coin or temp etc

but if we use my example the changes to the system happen every toss ,we dont yet have a machine than can calculate the direction and speed etc of the coin quick enough to predict which way it will land

so to us it is a random event ,only due to the fact we have no way of calculating or recording the information quick enough to be usefull

your machine we could take a year to build and fine tune ,my machine to make a coin toss predictable would need to calculate the velocity of the coin as it left the hand and before it landed

in short your machine has set parimeters to toss the coin to heads untill the system changes ,my machine would calculate every toss as it happens

i think your going up a blind alley with your machine mate ,

it would be the difference between a making a fruit machine set to show cherrys every spin as opposed to a machine that would predict when cherrys would appear during random spins