Guest bazzad9 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Agreed. I dont know why i bother. I really mean it genuinely. When i thought about it logically those are the conclusions i reached. Then again what is logical about chanting Engerland, engerland, engerland from behind a tv screen. As if that will effect the outcome. Nothing much logical about being Human. We re emotional beings. It does however, work for me. In a devasting crisis 'hope' is probabaly one of the more useful emotional positions. I for one aint going down without a fight and if i have to use prayer to get me through a tight spot well thats one more weapon to me. i think there is a big spectrum of prayer for arguments sake lets say your on the top floor of a building with ten floors the bottom floor is on fire and you know its only going to rise to your position one person might pray to god for a way out "come on god show me a way out of this "so you say your prayer and then you scan the room for this sign from god whilst scanning the room you notice a little door to a fire escape ,your saved in this scenario maybe the prayer and the resulting search for a sign did save your life or maybe there is a bit of a drop to make your escape you simply say a prayer to ask for the strength to help you jump you say your prayer feel better and jump again maybe that prayer saved you the other end of the spectrum is the same scenario as the first but this time the prayer is not to help you find a way out its simply praying for a miracle and the fire to stop ,in gods hands if you will ,you do nothing to help yourself in my opinion the two are worlds apart also there is the point i touched on earlier regarding formalising your hopes in life if your taking time and concentrating all your hopes and listing them or setting them out in the form of a prayer and it helps you achieve these goals then i think its worthwhile ,it doesnt seem that different from meditation in that respect i agree we all need a bit of hope mate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold Layne Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 What kind of prayer? Liturgical, free, group, individual, pentecostalist and "in tongues", spontaneous cries for help, .... the lost goes on, I'm afraid. Some have obvious origins, others are harder to pin down. Liturgical evolution is extremely old ~ some scholars even see Biblical passages like Genesis 1 and 2 as being possibly liturgical in nature. If man's sense of lost-ness in the vastness of nature (cf, the "Sublime" in the study of Fine Art) provides a part source for religion, and his use of psychedelic plants another, then maybe in them we are also looking at the source and origin of most prayer forms? Which, of course, became fossilised into Liturgies, and removed from their source. Some would say they lose their vital power the further from source they are moved. If one watches Liturgical Worship, I think one can see the vindication of that viewpoint. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishmael Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Living subject to time and not knowing the future will always give rise to hope and to fear. If you don't have science to tell you how to predict things like spring and sunrise, you will experience much more in the way of hope and fear. Unbearable amounts of both in fact - which is why before science there was always religion. If you say a prayer, and then the sun rises, and you don't have a better explanation than to believe that it rose because you prayed to it, you are going to go on praying to it every morning just in case, because that way you can hope that you have some control over it. The flipside of hopeful prayer is fear of death and what it leads to. Natural forces do threaten to kill humans, so from that it's only a short step to assume that gods are represented by these life-thretening forces, gods who like to claim human lives every so often. Logically, then, you can try to keep those gods happy and thus claim a bit of control by ritually killing the odd human just to please them. Or maybe just killing an animal will do. The mystery of where people go when they die is rather haunting without science, too. Dismemberment, exposure, cremation and burial seem in their origin to be ways of making sre the dead don't stop being dead - thus dealing with fear - and then to develop ways of making sure death doesn't end your experience as an individual as a result of hope of an afterlife. Sacrifice might offer power over this process too. Then there are the self-sacrificing gods who take the sacrifice on themselves and save us from the foul logic of human sacrifice. It will be a great day whenh we don't need them any more, long way off though. Edited May 31, 2012 by Ishmael 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bazzad9 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 hello arnold ive been watching a series about churches some of the real old ones where really basic no colours or stained glass hard seats etc ,it was all about the worship the longer you could suffer the seating the more you would be giving to god is this in line with Liturgical Worship or have i got it the wrong way round or am i completely wrong ,theology is not my strong point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troy Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I think the meaning of prayer is very simple and is usually understood as pleading to a deity, anything else is metaphorical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L S Diesel Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I simply haven't the nerve to imagine a being, a force, a cause which keeps the planets revolving in their orbits and then suddenly stops in order to give me a bicycle with three speeds. Flippant but a smashing quote LSD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold Layne Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 hello arnold ive been watching a series about churches some of the real old ones where really basic no colours or stained glass hard seats etc ,it was all about the worship the longer you could suffer the seating the more you would be giving to god is this in line with Liturgical Worship or have i got it the wrong way round or am i completely wrong ,theology is not my strong point No, not really bazzad9. Liturgy is simply worship by the book, where a strict text is followed, with no or little room for spontaneity. Some Denominations are liturgical, some are not. The endurance of suffering is largely a Catholic concept, and does not sit well with Protestant theologies. It can be a part of liturgy, but it is by no means essential. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bazzad9 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 No, not really bazzad9. Liturgy is simply worship by the book, where a strict text is followed, with no or little room for spontaneity. Some Denominations are liturgical, some are not. The endurance of suffering is largely a Catholic concept, and does not sit well with Protestant theologies. It can be a part of liturgy, but it is by no means essential. cheers arnold i did do a search on it ,you explained in one paragraph what several websites failed to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyblueboots Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Prayer is a highly personal thing. I think biblicaly the term prayer and meditation are interchangeable but i could be wrong, so i stand to correction. Arnold? Bazzad your dead right. Some pray and wait and wait...? I know them. They expect God to wipe they're bottys for them. Prayer- opportunity- action. God will help you catch fish but at least get a fishing rod. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurasian_farmer Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 (edited) Have u ever felt that you were unable to carry on, and a prayer for courage was all you needed to keep going? praying could be simply a form of self motivation that works when you need it most, and has been twisted into dieties and such... for profit, control & immunity from forced ignorance E2A - Edited May 31, 2012 by eurasian_farmer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStoneDuk Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I've speed read through this thread so it may have already been said. In my experience and imho, the main function of prayer for many people isn't a request for something tangible eg a way out, save a life etc but more as a technique to become closer to ones God, to maintain a relationship. As I said, sorry if I'm repeating what's been said. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratdog Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 and has been twisted into dieties Like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I read quite an interesting suggestion about prayer in a psychology book. It said that if an individual were to ask the writer (a psychologist) for advice about prayer, specifically whether they should pray, he would give the following advice: If you think of god as all powerful, the potential answer to all your problems who could give you anything you want then no, you shouldn't pray. This is because people often become very angry when they don't get what they want, or use prayer to "hide behind" instead of doing what they know they should (waiting for their prayers to be answered instead). On the other hand, if you think of god as a friend, who will always be there for you to talk to about your life or what you are struggling with then yes. That could be quite helpful. I have found it a useful way of thinking at times, although obviously not the only valid point of view by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bazzad9 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I read quite an interesting suggestion about prayer in a psychology book. It said that if an individual were to ask the writer (a psychologist) for advice about prayer, specifically whether they should pray, he would give the following advice: If you think of god as all powerful, the potential answer to all your problems who could give you anything you want then no, you shouldn't pray. This is because people often become very angry when they don't get what they want, or use prayer to "hide behind" instead of doing what they know they should (waiting for their prayers to be answered instead). On the other hand, if you think of god as a friend, who will always be there for you to talk to about your life or what you are struggling with then yes. That could be quite helpful. I have found it a useful way of thinking at times, although obviously not the only valid point of view by any means. gets my vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Degsy Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 I read quite an interesting suggestion about prayer in a psychology book. It said that if an individual were to ask the writer (a psychologist) for advice about prayer, specifically whether they should pray, he would give the following advice: If you think of god as all powerful, the potential answer to all your problems who could give you anything you want then no, you shouldn't pray. This is because people often become very angry when they don't get what they want, or use prayer to "hide behind" instead of doing what they know they should (waiting for their prayers to be answered instead). On the other hand, if you think of god as a friend, who will always be there for you to talk to about your life or what you are struggling with then yes. That could be quite helpful. I have found it a useful way of thinking at times, although obviously not the only valid point of view by any means. So it's just a chat with an imaginary friend then ? that sounds ok 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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