Theist-Atheist scale

[Guest davedee420]

Related:.......On his death bed in the last few days of his life theres a story( True by all accounts) That W.C.Fields

was caught by his friends/familly reading the bible,now he was a known and commited athiest,so this was a suprise to all.

When quizzed he came out with the classic..:.."Oh just looking for loopholes,just looking for loopholes".........I always liked

that one...You can never be 100% really really sure till yer snuff it..........Mind you he also said "I dont drink water,fish fuck in it".

.............Peace.....M......

[Squaggles]

Who voted for 1.0 and how do you 'know' that God exists ?

If he exists why doesn't he just let us know ?

[Guest roger]

Who voted for 1.0 and how do you 'know' that God exists ?

If he exists why doesn't he just let us know ?

The Babel Fish is small, yellow and leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it, It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. the practical upshot of this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any language.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes like this : “I refuse to prove that I exist”, says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.”

“But”, says Man, “the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn’t it? it could not have evolved by chance. it proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. QED.”

“Oh dear”, says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.“Oh that was easy” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

-- Douglas Adams

[Chris P]

We've got 2 theists now, who 100% know there is a God. I'd like to ask what evidence they have to make that assumption?

So, just to sum up the poll so far, assuming the top 2 choices, theism and defacto theism can be grouped into theism, the middle 3 choices of uncertainty could be classed as agnostism, and the last 2 choices, defacto atheism and atheism can be grouped into atheism we now have the following:

_Theists ** (2)

Agnostics *********** (11)

_Atheists ********************** (22)

For every theist, there are 5.5 agnostics and 11 atheists.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Krys Farm

[rebirth]

i am a 5 that means i think i know better. i dont, i cant, care if there is a god. do you think he would ever let someone know or listen, he would have to be the illigitimate father of millions. no one wants that not even god. if he created us he fucked up that is if you think god is human. he is not human if he is god. we are ants but we cant know it or we will build a home for ourselves.

we dont look after the whole group "all humanity" so we will fail and in saying that we will destroy this planet. i care more for the planet and the life that will come after than i care about myself can you say the same. i will forget this as i must to survive this. this is a rebirth but i will never realise or want to admit it. as long as that is true i am human but in identifying myself as a human i am not saying im biologically different, but ive educated myself. this is a danger to me as i will make the same mistakes probably the same as my parents. (what i think but not always what i do)

i am the problem but i want to be the solution as soon as someone says help i will even if it is the wrong person.

so now you are alone what are you thinking? am i smart no? am i fierce no? but am i right yes? if you have listened you have been reborn if you have not you cannot imagine!(and i cant expect to convince you) this is a tiny truth there is more if you look but you must forget this and buy books. there is a finer layer always think microscope we are designed to be a big wide lense sometimes you only look at a bit of it. (and please dont get paranoia nothing has changed) rebirth

edited to say (god is a particle that shouldnt have been dont fool yourself into worshiping him you do that by living well. so you can sleep at night at get up again and ruin this mess)

people wont exept this as they are wrong (i am too) and they will have to worship particles to look there wives in the face. this doesnt make sense so why would you listen?

roger understands!

Edited August 16, 2008 by rebirth

[Boojum]

Pedantic but.. (bearing in mind I voted 6). Either God exists or doesn't. It's a 50/50 really. There's no evidence to say God does exist. There's no evidence to say God doesn't. It's a purely 50/50 thing. One person's belief says God does exist, my belief says God almost certainly doesn't. But that's our personal beliefs. In real terms there is only 50/50 - either God exists or it doesn't. No logic to it, no argument either way. Either God exists or it doesn't. Pure 50/50. Flip a coin. Heads or tails. Cos there's no logical argument either way. It's not a logical question. God does exist or not. No rational argument either way. 50/50. Flip a coin. You try to argue for either side, it's just opinion, has no logical basis. 50/50. Flip a coin.

[Guest roger]

Pedantic but.. (bearing in mind I voted 6). Either God exists or doesn't. It's a 50/50 really. There's no evidence to say God does exist. There's no evidence to say God doesn't. It's a purely 50/50 thing. One person's belief says God does exist, my belief says God almost certainly doesn't. But that's our personal beliefs. In real terms there is only 50/50 - either God exists or it doesn't. No logic to it, no argument either way. Either God exists or it doesn't. Pure 50/50. Flip a coin. Heads or tails. Cos there's no logical argument either way. It's not a logical question. God does exist or not. No rational argument either way. 50/50. Flip a coin. You try to argue for either side, it's just opinion, has no logical basis. 50/50. Flip a coin.

Come on then, I need to call you on this 50/50 thing where is your evidence that it is an even bet?

Besides to play a bit, if the smallest odds that are imaginable for god's existence are say 'one over infinity against', that would still leave a lot of room for an omnipotent god to work in, it almost begs it....

eta: whilst I'm at it - are Thor, Poseidon & Ra all at a 50% probability of existing?

Edited August 16, 2008 by roger

[Chris P]

Pedantic but.. (bearing in mind I voted 6). Either God exists or doesn't. It's a 50/50 really. There's no evidence to say God does exist. There's no evidence to say God doesn't. It's a purely 50/50 thing. One person's belief says God does exist, my belief says God almost certainly doesn't.

Isn't that self-contradictory though, you say your belief is that it is unlikely that God exists and vote for 6, defacto atheist, but then say the real odds can only be 50/50...

[Guest Dr Benways Assistant]

Interesting article about the odds of god's existance that takes apart Pascal's Wager http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleD...27/Default.aspx

Edited August 16, 2008 by Dr Benways Assistant

[Guest roger]

Well and also as far as believing in God....I know one thing...That if I don't believe then for sure there won't be a God or a Heavon or anything else after because I don't believe so....I do believe...because I want it to be so and If I was a betting man which I'm not heheX then all my money down on God...really...

pascal's wager, eh? how about "It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."

Wishful thinking does not make a thing so...

[Chris P]

I watched a documentary earlier where Richard Dawkins classified himself as a category 6 atheist on this scale.

It would be interesting to know if the theists who voted disagree with evolution, in retrospect I probably should have added that as an additional question on the poll.

Richard Dawkins reading some of his letters

[Arnold Layne]

Theist.

Evolution - no worries, Krys. Why should there be?

I see you also demand evidence for other folks' beliefs. Why? Are they not allowed to hold their beliefes without you first check up on them? What are you - the friggin' thought police?

IME, there's nowt so bigoted and full of bile (and shit) as a pedantic authoritiarian atheist. Worse than bloomin' door knocking fumadamentalists, all rant and hardly any reason usually.

[Chris P]

Theist.

Evolution - no worries, Krys. Why should there be?

I see you also demand evidence for other folks' beliefs. Why? Are they not allowed to hold their beliefes without you first check up on them? What are you - the friggin' thought police?

IME, there's nowt so bigoted and full of bile (and shit) as a pedantic authoritiarian atheist. Worse than bloomin' door knocking fumadamentalists, all rant and hardly any reason usually.

There doesn't necessarily have to be a clash between theists and the acceptance of evolution but I suspected that if somebody claims to 100% know there is a god then they would also deny evolutionary theory. Thanks for answering the question though, I had already read in a previous post your stance on evolution so I knew you didn't disagree with it, however I'm surprised you voted for option 1, strong theist, I thought you would have took a more logical standpoint. If you read through the posts you will see that I am as critical of category 7 atheists, as I am to category 1 theists, there is no evidence for either, which is why I dsagree with both.

No, I'm not the thought police, like I said earlier people are free to believe whatever they like, there is no need to be sarcastic, people are free to hold whatever views they like, I don't want to 'check up' on anybody, I'm just interested in the logic people are following in making their choices. You say an authoritarian atheist is full of shit, but as a category 1 theist I would have to put you in the same the group as you are ascerting something which you cannot possibly know, however I disagree with pushing ones own view onto somebody else, although I think discussion is healthy so we can each make up our own mind about what we believe about the cosmos.

I don't believe in bigfoot

I don't believe in fairies

I don't believe in god

I don't believe in ghosts

I don't believe UFO's are visiting us, etc

but there are plenty of people who do, and that is their choice

Edited August 18, 2008 by Krys Farm

[Arnold Layne]

Category 1? How do you know that? Come to that, how do you know I even voted?

I suspected that if somebody claims to 100% know there is a god then they would also deny evolutionary theory

Why??

Let's be honest, without comprehensive definition of terms, this whole discussion is worthless. You are talking "God", but there is no definition. What is this "God"? How can anyone possibly say if they believe in your "god" when you do not define her/him/it?

I don't mean to be sarcastic, or harsh. But I will chase down poor logic like a dog on a hare when it comes to Theology And you did "sound" like you were demanding reasons for others' believing what they do.

You don't believe in a lot of things.

Even UFO's. So what do you call a flying object you cannot recognise, when you see it? Or do you simply refuse to believe your own eyes, and say "it does not exist, it is not there, it cannot exist, it cannot be there"?

Faith is choice, indeed. On that we agree. But what exacty, apart from choice, is faith? What is it "to believe"? Are we simply talking intellectual recognition, or is there more to faith than that?

Edited August 18, 2008 by Arnold Layne

[Chris P]

I appreciate your response and I know you understand much more about theology than I do and I generally agree with you I think.

To take the points you mentioned, I am not certain that you voted or what choice you made if you did, I just made an assumption based on deductive logic. You state you are a theist, which only leaves options 1 & 2 as possible choices, and I am also aware of what the current votes were standing at and know that 100% theism got a +1 vote, but I apologise for jumping to conclusions without adequate evidence, it could have been somebody else that cast that vote.

With regards to a definition for God, I did try to make a crude definition of God, which was that God is not the universe, but an intelligent creator who purposefully made the universe.

The reason I assumed somebody who 100% knows there is a God would disagree with the process of evolution is simply because of their level of conviction that a God exists, when I consider that impossible, just like somebody who says they are 100% certain that a God doesn't exist. I would have thought there would at least be some element of doubt, in the absence of what I would call solid evidence. As evolutionary theory proposes we all evolved from bacteria that somewhat goes against the fact that we were created by God, leaving as a possiblity that God 'guided' the process, therefore not necessarily making evolution and belief in God mutually exclusive.

I apologise if it sounded like I was demanded reasons for other peoples beliefs, I didn't mean for it to come across that way, I was just more interesting in the logic of people making extreme choices on the scale, which is why I asked Roger why he classed himslef as a category 7 atheist, just like I was enquiring of those who class themselves as category 1 theists. For me, both those choices come down to blind faith, but I am more understanding of the choices in between.

With regards to UFO's, I should clarify what I meant, which was alien space craft of extra terrestrial origin. I was not referring to unidentifed objects as such, as these could be helicopters, shooting stars, government research projects, etc. I just disbelieve that the UFO sightings are extra terrestrial in origin, and my reason for making this assumption is based on logic. We have already been scanning space for radio waves and signs of other alien communication and have yet to find any. In conjunction with the understanding of the huge distances involved, for example, Einstein has showed that it is impossible to travel faster than light, and even at the speed of light it would take 100,000 years to travel from one side of our galaxy to the other. To travel from one side of the observable universe to the other would take approximately 78 billion years. The distances are vast, and although some alien race may have developed technology to warp space and travel the huge distances required they would need to be extremely technologically advanced. I think they would communicate with us first before travelling here, and if they did come here they would at least converse with us after making all that effort and finding other life in the universe. I presume there must be other life in the universe, but at the same time think the distances are so great that we will never meet. The observable universe is probably only a fraction of the size of space, which could be infinite, also there is minor evidence that space has a slight curvature and is spherical in shape, which would mean our view would be like what we can see on Earth, the curvature is so small and we can see a small portion of the planet at any one time. Space is no doubt vast, probably infinite and with 200 billions stars in our own galaxy and hundreds of billions of known galaxies there are no doubt lots of planets where life could arise. There are over 90 astral bodies in our own solar system.

I think faith by it's very definition is belief which isn't based on evidence and thus cannot be proved or disproved, hence it is our own interpretation of what we see of the world around us, and I respect other peoples beliefs. I would very much like to believe in a God, and I don't discount it, but in the absence of evidence I cannot accept it. It would be comforting to know that there is a bigger meaning in the universe and the scumbags who burgled my house will get their punishment in the afterlife, or God will bestow retribution, but I don't believe it and am forced to rely on a legal system and system of rehabilitation which doesn't work very well (when they are caught next time). I do appreciate the sense of wonder and awe of the universe and life itself, and I try to be a good person, but don't find comfort in religion. As I've said before, I don't find any problems with the belief in God, just mankinds specific interpretation of him/her, when it cannot possibly be known, as if there is a God, it is incomprehensbile to our feable minds. I do not doubt the virtues of following a religion either, it is part of the history of our species.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Krys Farm