UK and Europe

[Boojum]

Makes no difference to me whether it's some cunt in Westminster who is telling me what to do from his ivory tower with no idea how real people actually live, or some cunt in Brussels. I favour Europe because if we are part of Europe we stand less chance of becoming the 51st state of America than if we are separate from Europe, and if I have to choose between being part of America or part of Europe I'll choose Europe every time. Either way the idea that the UK can stand alone is a fucking nonsense, anyone who thinks we can is living in the 19th Century. We are a tinpot little nothing off the coast of Europe that used to be a major player. We're not any longer.

[Michael Luchóg]

Yes, but they want to stay with Euro? , that`s the question of the thread isn`t it? I want to stay part of Europe, i want all the world to be one country

Yes it would appear they want to stay part of the euro .Going back to the punt would be another dangerous move but who know .The Dutch really didn't like losing the gelder .

If the UK were to convert to the Euro it would be harder for them to keep their partition . One country is easier to manage !

[groovelick]

I see Dave Cameron gave his usual clear response " a simple yes or no is a false answer on the question of Europe!"

Yeah cheers Dave

Meanwhile Dave wants a simple yes/no from Scotland about the union which is an equally multi-faceted question.

[BudFan]

I am really muddled over this debate. I guess part of me thinks it is best to remain as a full member state of the EU.

Does anyone know some facts about the pros and cons, I feel really uninformed on this matter.

Hi soberman,

There are good and bad things about the situation, in my opinion.

The first thing to note is that the people of the UK were never asked - nor did they expect - to be part of an organisations like the EU. The organisation Britain joined originally was called the EEC - the European Economic Community. This was formed by rich western European nations to make a common market, to give them more economic clout combined. Britain was not an original member and joined years later, but only after the French successfully managing to keep us out on one occasion (because they said we were an American puppet, who wanted to join purely to promote American influence).

This represented economic integration, of which they is much good to be said. British jobs are supported by the European market, for example. The British people were happy with this. The EEC was seen as a "rich mans club" with many benefits for member states and it was seen as a good thing to join. Monetary union was strongly promoted to the members, even at this early stage, and most of them eventually (much later) joined the Euro, which has been a disaster zone in recent years. The Euro is a basically stupid idea, given the large diversity of the member economies (meaning the same policies cant work for everyone). Fortunately the UK didn't join. Nevertheless we have still had to give £ millions on several occasions to help bail the Euro out, even though we are not part of it.

Over time the EEC has morphed into the EU. And from purely economic integration, it has grown arms and legs into political integration. There are now European MPs, European Courts, a European central bank, European Laws and regulations etc, many of which over-rule our own courts. There are some very important people, who you or I have never heard of, making decisions which affect all our lives. None of this was ever expected, asked for or voted for by the British people - it has come as a creeping effect over time. Many people object to this, either due to its direct effects or purely the principle of it.

There is much wrong with the EU, it is largely unaccountable with money (our money, which it wallows in) and is not audited. Its safe to say the political classes do very well out of it, in terms of money and opportunities - not only has the EU parliament created a whole host of new politicians, but now ex-prime ministers etc often graduate to become European commissioners etc after they leave domestic office, prolonging their careers.

On the plus side, the free movement of people around Europe is a mostly good thing. We in the UK get a lot of good workers for our economy, through people choosing to come and live here. Of course, free movement of people (or more accurately, of "labour") was really introduced for the benefit of Business / capitalists, so that the cheapest labour could be brought directly to them. However, there are still advantages for the individual, though we should not be so naïve as to think our good was considered at all.

"No borders" is not without problems though. It makes it harder to police who enters our own nation, meaning security issues. As for movement of people - I think a persons experience of this depends on their circumstances. If someone was down on their luck and unemployed, they might understandably resent people coming into the country as it means more competition for jobs. It might even drive wages down, though we do have a minimum wage now. So, from that persons point of view, free movement is a bad thing. But then if another person already has a steady job and a decent income - and can afford a holiday - then their experience is very different and they probably think free movement is a good thing as it means are able to explore Europe without visas and border checks etc.

You see a lot of flashy signs proclaiming EU part-funding of local projects, new roads etc. People probably think that is good, but then what about the people who need state support whilst the UK Government gives billions to the EU? (Who then part-finance our projects - with our own money - and then take the credit for it).

I think in many ways the EU is ultimately a double edged sword, in that it will be good for some people, but not so good for other people - and sadly I think it will be the existing "haves" who get more, and the existing "have nots" who do not benefit. This actually mirrors the experience of member nations, as the euro has been savaged by the global economy. Greece in particular has been ruined. Much of the euros problems is because it is necessarily run with companies like BMW and Mercedes-Benz in mind, and it turns out these plans are not such a good fit for other businesses, such as greek fishermen, Italian olive farmers or Spanish restaurant owners etc.

I think that the UK-EU situation is similar to the Scotland-UK situation. There is talk of leaving, but I think most people really want to stay - but they do want some changes in how things are done. I think this is how both situations will turn out.

Remember too, before the EU / EEC the major European powers fought the two worst wars ever between each other, drawing in the whole world on both occasions. It is better than Europeans do their fighting in conferences than on battlefields.

My preference would be to stay in, but ensure

- a much reduced financial contribution from the UK, the savings from which to be used to help British people struggling in the recession

- better EU auditing / accountability (wont happen though as they all have their snouts in the trough)

- more UK sovereignty with regard to law etc

I would also like to see the EU to do more so that less well off people, particularly the young, get more out of it - eg trips abroad, cultural exchange holidays etc. Some schemes exist already - but typically it is only middle-class children or students or professionals who get the chance of them, which isn't fair. Also, where should be universal access to free EU language lessons, as a means for people to improve their skills through promoting the EU. If they really want the British to be better at learning languages, let them put their (our) money where their mouth is.

[Guest Soberman]

Could the UK stand on its own, hmm well the city of London could as it gets lots of revenue from its laundering, the regions and provinces would lose out, and Britain isn't really a full member, MEP's are a joke, just look at who represents us in Euro, mainly protest group's that get elected eg BNP/UKIP they get voted for by people who think that it is snubbing westminster to have these mickey mouse MEP's

Some interesting replies thanks. I have to say I am personally not bothered about the perception of exclusivity about leaving Europe. I want what is ultimately best for the economy I suppose like most. However what is best for the economy is not continuing to expand and feed the financial sector, we need to get a new balance of incomes. We were so not on the green energy rush, Germany running solar power early in the year with the output of 22 nuclear power stations at full tilt! UK could not even dream of such great achievement right now.

Where were our politicians then ? Knowing this tech would be in HUGE demand they missed the chance of a collosal industry which was going to be in demand globally. If you are like Norway, extremely rich you have massive gas and oil reseverve you can what you fancy cause you are in demand not the other way round. We are at the mercy of some financial greedy bastards who will cause another recession through greed as they already just did.

I am sadly not convinced this country is capable of holding it down, delivering and being that saleable anymore.