Desire..

[Guest Dr Benways Assistant]

What's wrong with a desire for money or temporal power? Depending on how you go about getting and using those things it could be absolutely fine, couldn't it?

The Scrabble point is very valid imo as that's all I think this and any religious/philosophical discussion is, so many letters on a board

Edited January 14, 2008 by Dr Benways Assistant

[Percy]

The Scrabble point is very valid imo as that's all I think this and any religious/philosophical discussion is, so many letters on a board

eek - a daft pun leads us on to good old huxley via the open mind of dr ben

B)

huxley's proposition in the doors of perception regarding the personalisation of language & the filter on meaning that entails is what we're flapping around now isn't it?

ie. what each of the words we're examining mean to us on a personal level & the peripheral unexpressed attachments we presume others share

the job title 'shop steward' may instigate different preconceptions to different people. its just a job title but the implications for me as a kid in the 70s whose dad was a shop steward led to my early politicisation

[AussieGuy]

What's wrong with a desire for money or temporal power? Depending on how you go about getting and using those things it could be absolutely fine, couldn't it?

Personally, I never met a dollar I didn't like. But I thought we were discussing buddhism...

The Scrabble point is very valid imo as that's all I think this and any religious/philosophical discussion is, so many letters on a board

Sure. Doesn't mean it's not entertaining, in much the same way as some would find a game of Scrabble entertaining...

[Baba Ku]

So instead of "desire to live", read "attachment to life". The difference is... ?

The difference, and it is a very important one and the nub of my posts, is this:

I can desire to live, that is natural and healthy. In pursuit of that desire I might look after my body in order to prolong my life. I do this because living is nice . I get to experience all sorts of sensations and emotions, and as long as I avoid attachment to those feelings and emotions I avoid suffering.

If however I become 'attached' to living, then I will experience suffering. I have come to believe in myself as quite separate from the rest of the Universe, in other words I have cultivated ego. That perception of myself as separate is what causes me to fear death, because I fear that 'I' will cease to exist when I die. The attachment to living is so strong, because, as you rightly point out, of the fear of death, I can be driven to extremes of behaviour in order to preserve my life. I might lie, cheat, steal and even kill in order to prolong my own life at the expense of others.

If however I give up my attachment to living, I can spend my time wholly in the here and now, experiencing each moment of my life fully, free from the fear of dying. If I accept that everyone and everything in the Universe is one, and when my physical body dies I will still be a part of that Universe, then I can carry on with the business of truly living. I can experience both joy and sadness, pleasure and pain, in the knowledge that they are just phenomena that arise, and will continue to arise, and that if I do not become attached to one or the other, then I need fear neither.

Of course, this is all theoretical until one achieves enlightenment, but that's a whole other post.

Edited January 14, 2008 by Baba Ku

[AussieGuy]

So instead of "desire to live", read "attachment to life". The difference is... ?

The difference, and it is a very important one and the nub of my posts, is this:

I can desire to live, that is natural and healthy. In pursuit of that desire I might look after my body in order to prolong my life. I do this because living is nice . I get to experience all sorts of sensations and emotions, and as long as I avoid attachment to those feelings and emotions I avoid suffering.

If however I become 'attached' to living, then I will experience suffering. I have come to believe in myself as quite separate from the rest of the Universe, in other words I have cultivated ego. That perception of myself as separate is what causes me to fear death, because I fear that 'I' will cease to exist when I die. The attachment to living is so strong, because, as you rightly point out, of the fear of death, I can be driven to extremes of behaviour in order to preserve my life. I might lie, cheat, steal and even kill in order to prolong my own life at the expense of others.

Whereas I'd say that you've just expressed an attachment to living. You've become attached to experience, to sensations and emotions, ie to your life as it's expressed in this physical world. You can choose to experience different things and you have decided to try and focus on positive experience and avoid negative ones, like cheating, stealing, killing etc, but that's nothing more than a choice of the type of experiences you want. Choosing positive experiences only doesn't mean that you're not attached to them.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

[Baba Ku]

Whereas I'd say that you've just expressed an attachment to living. You've become attached to experience, to sensations and emotions, ie to your life as it's expressed in this physical world. You can choose to experience different things and you have decided to try and focus on positive experience and avoid negative ones, like cheating, stealing, killing etc, but that's nothing more than a choice of the type of experiences you want. Choosing positive experiences only doesn't mean that you're not attached to them.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

No, I don't. Either you haven't read my posts properly or your confused about the difference between attachment and desire. To say it is nice to be alive, to desire to be alive, is in no way to imply attachment to living. Perhaps this will help you understand. There is a famous story in the zen tradition about a warlord who while travelling takes over a temple as his quarters. He has the abbot brought before him, but the abbot does not bow to the warlord. The warlord angrily says to the abbot, "you fool, do you not understand that you are standing before someone who could run you through with thier sword without blinking an eye?" To which the abbot says " You fool, do you not understand that you are standing before someone who could be run through with your sword without blinking an eye?"

If you are still confused I suggest you consult a dictionary for the definition of both attachment and desire, you will find they have entirely different meanings.

[AussieGuy]

Scrabble again. I've read your posts.

I see attachment, desire and expectation as being three different manifestations of one basic underlying urge. Is that any easier?

[Guest Dr Benways Assistant]

Yes, and what is the urge?

[Baba Ku]

Scrabble again. I've read your posts.

I see attachment, desire and expectation as being three different manifestations of one basic underlying urge. Is that any easier?

No, it's not. I have no idea what it is you are talking about. It seems to me you have a very strong attachment to your views being the right views which is blinding you to what other people are saying. It seems you have misunderstood the meaning of the whole topic, and having reached a conclusion which has nothing to do with the topic in hand, your attachment to being right is blinding you to any kind of understanding of what is being discussed.

Since I have no attachment to either the topic, or my own views on the topic, I really don't see any point in engaging you in further discussion. Thank you for your earnest contributions though.

[AussieGuy]

Yes, and what is the urge?

The urge to go for a triple word score in our game of scrabble?

Babu,

Much of your post would apply equally both ways. However, while I've enjoyed your contributions and hearing your views and thoughts, I don't think it's appropriate for me to pronounce judgement on someone else's philosophical beliefs, views or opinions, nor do I think I know it all to a point where I should.

Niceone,

Thank you for that.

e2a bad gramma

Edited January 16, 2008 by AussieGuy

[Percy]

'hunger'

all us animals feel it when our bodies cry out for resources

after our needs are met it can mutate into gluttony i suppose

& the other basic natural urge, that of sexual desire or lust when felt most sharply (in my own case) it feels like hunger

like every cell in my body wants to mingle & be one (or possibly just shoot my load over the breasts of) a certain lady

'hunger' vs 'desire' : which is stronger?

[Guest Dr Benways Assistant]

Yes, and what is the urge?

The urge to go for a triple word score in our game of scrabble?

Babu,

Much of your post would apply equally both ways. However, while I've enjoyed your contributions and hearing your views and thoughts, I don't think it's appropriate for me to pronounce judgement on someone else's philosophical beliefs, views or opinions, nor do I think I know it all to a point where I should.

Niceone,

Thank you for that.

e2a bad gramma

I'm having real trouble letting go of an attachment myself, the attachment to knowing what on earth is going on.

Aussieguy if you want to bring an off topic subject into the discussion at least tell us what it is rather than assuming everyone has the slightest clue what you're talking about.

btw don't know if you noticed but Hinduism and Buddhism are not the same.

Edited January 16, 2008 by Dr Benways Assistant