This is an interesting link and adds to the evidence that shows that taking cannabis rather than being the precursor of psychosis is at worst a symptom of childhood trauma and at best an attempt to self medicate with a potent anti oxidant (THC).
I can certainly see from this though how its so easy for the quacks to convince the parents its the cannabis thats done the damage visa vi mental health, its got to be better than blaming themselves esp if they're not being offered any hope for the future either just chemicals from the nhs to make matters worse.


CSF CRF offers clue to childhood trauma and adult mental illness link

Am J Psychiatry 2005; 162: 995–997

Researchers have found evidence to support the hypothesis that the severity of early life stress is associated with stress hormone abnormalities in adulthood that could lead to mental illness.

Royce Lee (The University of Chicago, Illinois, USA) and colleagues report in the American Journal of Psychiatry that a direct relationship between childhood trauma and cerebral spinal fluid corticotropic-releasing factor (CSF CRF) levels was detected in 20 men who met the DSM-IV criteria for personality disorders.

For their preliminary study, the researchers used lumbar puncture to obtain measurements of CSF CRF levels in 20 men with personality disorders. Childhood adversity experienced by the participants was also assessed, using the Childhood Trauma Questionnaire.

Analysis of the findings showed that CSF CRF concentrations were positively associated with the total score on the Childhood Trauma Questionnaire.

Specifically, men with scores above the median total score for childhood trauma had average CSF CRF levels of 60.5 pg/ml, compared with 28.5 pg/ml for those whose childhood trauma scores were below the median.

The researchers note that increases in CSF CRF levels were particularly evident among men reporting high levels of emotional neglect. The relationship between CSF CRF levels and physical and emotional abuse and CSF CRF levels and physical neglect were smaller in magnitude and not significant.

Age, race, socioeconomic status, and Global Assessment of Functioning scores were not associated with CSF CRF levels or with Childhood Trauma Questionnaire total score.

"Given the presence of CRF receptors in areas of the brain associated with emotional and cognitive processing such as the amygdala and neocortex, CRF may play a role in personality psychopathology," the researchers suggest.

"Further work in this area should clarify the links between childhood trauma, central nervous system neurochemistry, and personality psychopathology," they conclude.


Personally I believe they should add enviromental toxins to the list of probable causes too not just neglect and abuse seeing that most articles claiming to have found higher levels of psychosis have done so in the inner cities but hell you don't get research published if you dare blame lead from deisel fumes or heavy industrial pollution for the problems with kids brains.

And this one shows very nicely the dangers of giving anti depressents to children and how these quacks may be causing the very problems they're blaming thc for. Its got to be better than admitting it may be their fault all the time I guess.


Earlier onset of bipolar disorder in children by antidepressants or stimulants? An hypothesis.

Reichart CG, Nolen WA.

Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Sophia Children's Hospital/Erasmus University of Rotterdam, Dr. Molewaterplein 40, Rotterdam 3015 GD, The Netherlands. reichart@psyd.azr.nl

Among adults and adolescents, bipolar disorder (BD) has a similar prevalence in the US and in the Netherlands. However, among pre-pubertal children, BD is frequently diagnosed in the US and seldomly in the Netherlands. This suggests that, among children, the prevalence of BD is lower in the Netherlands than in the US, indicating an earlier onset of BD in the US than in the Netherlands. It is hypothesized that this may be related to the greater use of antidepressants and stimulants for depression or attention deficit disorder with hyperactivity by US children. In those children who are genetically at risk to develop BD, these drugs may lead to a switch into mania.


and to make matters worse they're now claiming to be gene scientists too. COMT indeed.

lumbar fluids? psychosis?
what has my spine got to do with depression/psycosis etc??
now im very confused(or too stoned to make sense of it)
can anybody explain it in terminology i understand??

Is your spine not connected your brain then bhudika?

Must make typing difficult.

Mental stress affects brain chemistry. For instance, children in abusive or irritable households "make their own drugs" - these are stress chemicals/hormones.
Brain=spinal cord, lumbar puncture draws fluid off to test.
Emdeema

methinks its the cheese that makes the typing difficult
never occured to me that you could get brain info from that near my arse
does this mean that if you have physical problems of some sort in your spine that this could have a direct effect on brain chemistry? or am i barking(up the wrong tree)

It can - depends on the probem.
Long term chronic spinal pain will leave anyone hovering around the dark rim of depression, it is inevitable. Same for any chronic pain. We are a balance of chemicals, nothing more, nothing less. If you disrupt the balance at any one point, the whole will be altered in some small or great way.

i do get depressed(have the afformentioned spinal problem) but thought that this was caused by being really p***ed of at life because of the limitations my disability puts on my life, could the problem with my spine cause chemical changes(depression etc.) without the councious thought(knowing im pissed off)?
or is that a million dollar question?

Both sound plausible to me. There are very many things that can effect our chemical balances and if the balance in the brain is disturbed then there'll be problems with mood for sure. Theres a very interesting website from the U.S called crimetimes that lists tons of studies warning about inner city pollution and the fact its going to cause psychosis in our teenagers very soon. Trouble is the studies are all dated from quite a few years back and looking at society now I guess its already hit.
Blaming cannabis is just stupid with all the poisons that are around nowadays. Then theres the abuse argument too, that poor man who's in the news today cus he was abused by a catholic priest suffers from schizophrenia now and its known that sexual abuse as a child causes it to happen. That sort of story always makes me sus of people who blame cannabis for their kids problems nowadays. They're screaming cannabis is bad at the top of their lungs and I'm sat here wondering if they're perhaps protesting too much and are actually abusers covering up what they've done. Horrible thing to say I know but its a horrible world too and things like this happen. Its just not comfortable as a society to admit it happens so that only leaves blaming "bad kids" and "bad drugs."

Loads of things are risk factors for schizophrenia, as well as, it just happens. Inn er city living, having a horrile childhood, all these are risk factors. So are being young and male and black. Cannabis is also a risk factor for teenage use, I do not "blame" cannabis. I say that it is a big risk factor for teenagers using it, and a big indication that they shouldnt be doing so, and as adults we have a responsibity towards them. Apparently its easier for kids to get hold of cannabis than it is for them to get alcohol and solvents, becaseu of age resteictions at sale. This has huge implications and a powerful tool to be used in an arguement for legalisarion.

and you would be wrong

If the kids were not doing this they would be experimenting with alcohol and solvents.



There is just no comparison to the effects and consequence’s of solvent and alcohol abuse to the individual the family and to society in general.

most parents I know are never worried if there childeren smoke cannabis but always warn of the dangers of alcohol, solvents, and class A drugs like smack and crack.

Hi



Prove it???

What do you mean BIG am sorry that’s a huge word your using there.. That is scarring people and I will not have that you are talking about a small amount even then unproven no facts and all they can use on TV and media is Crack heads to explain about cannabis that’s not on neither most who take cannabis don’t take hard drugs even booze and fags.. All am saying watch what you say and don’t over do it something with no proven link we still have 30 people looking in EU and USA and UK and Australia No results and that’s search has been going on for 8 months so someone explain to me and others who need this result how this is being seen as real and a fact???? If you could please put the prove into here I will stop the search and then we will know the truth and put the world out of its misery..

Bongme

[quote=bongme,Jul 1 2005, 09:51 AM]
Hi
Prove it???





There is enough evidence of risks for teenagers' for us as adults to discourage them from using it. And I dont see how this can be doen without a legalised controllled framework

im with bongme on this one, what 'evidence'?
I believe that the whole schitzophrenic scare was the incoherrant rambling "one" so called doddery old dutch scientist, i did two years of psychology and that taught me one thing-statistics can be bought with whatever results you want

lets see it then

put up or shut up

http://www.ukcia.org/research/COMTgene.pdf

Obviously people have a different take on research depending on their expereince of it. But certainly more than one old Dutch scientist are saying this. Not a good idear for under 18s to use cannabis. But thatsno reason why adults shouldnt.

Cars are dangerous. Whether we like it or not they are part of our culture. So the answe to the dangerousness is to make them as safe as possible as has been happening since they appeared on the road . in terms of the car, the driver, the roads, pretty subtle stuff that is changing all the time, and will never be right.

But if cars were banned ...they would not go away, people would still drive them but all the subletlies of the regulation about their use would be lost and they woud therefore be more dangerous than before.

NOt perhaps a perfect analogy but legalisation so that children are not being sold cananbis makes sense.

and btw Ill shut up if I choose to, and not because you tell me to, thank you very much.

thanks for that sello ...it makes interesting reading ...(ok i havent read most of it, its a bit early for those long words and i have a prior appointment with tesco b4 the ravenous hoards start to stir) ..but i'll be back

Hi



Exactly: Why should adults not have what they would like to relax with after a hard days work not everyone likes booze…In fact the breweries are at a lose in Scotland (Good) The report is one we seen a long time ago and we know this report all ready and have had it analysed and it’s the same for most things in life are no good for a child of 14 years of age, from bleach to booze to driving a car more kids die in sweets stuck in there throat than anything else so ban sweets?

As for the Report all I can say is if it’s true (but need prove for adults, as that’s who consume it mostly not kids) All we can do is put a label on it with information in all out-lets for all parents and adults and kids alike to read and have a better understanding of the subject of cannabis…And that’s the end of it as far as I can see even if it was true there is no more we can do??? So legalise Cannabis so Governments and Adults and responsible adult head shops can take control of Cannabis too keep it away from kids but while the gangsters and the street dealers have it this will never change only get worse but socity as always will blame Cannabis not the human...

Bongme

well lets hope you choose to stop or alternativly provide some evidence to back up your claims.

Quote from repot: Moderation of effect of adolescent onset cannabis use of adult psychosis

Speculation about implications of this finding should be guarded until it is replicated. And several cravats should be noted.
Firstly the study does not imply that cannabis poses a major risk to the public’s mental health because the majority of cannabis users in this, as in other studies did not develop psychosis The interaction between adolescent cannabis use and genotype subjects, however that adolescents’ could be a sensitive period of neurobiological vulnerability to cannabis to some young people, and if so policy should discourage adolescents access to cannabis m
second. The study does not identify a major cause of schizophrenia.

This does not constitute prove
so show us your evidence or shut up!

dear bhudika - have you thought of visiting a chiropractic for your spinal probs. it's what they specialise in and are often very useful in diagnosing secondary problems and giving pain relief. osteopaths do a similar job but they don't specialise on the spine.

i really dont think such aggressive remarks are helpful to the debate.

"dear bhudika - have you thought of visiting a chiropractic for your spinal probs. it's what they specialise in and are often very useful in diagnosing secondary problems and giving pain relief. osteopaths do a similar job but they don't specialise on the spine"

i spent 5 years going to a chiropractor, who treated my spine, i have 3 dessicated discs and have since been told that manipulation could have made my problem worse, he "lost" my x-rays,it may have got worse on its own, may have been the chiro, either way im not going back there again!!

1 visit a month- £30 per visit*5 years and no better for it
but thanks for the suggestion anyway
1 year after my mri scan diagnosis and ive actually got my first physio in a few days time, god bless the NHS

bhudika - not sure what "dessicated" means. I have a load of "Totally Degenerated Disks" in my neck and lower back - is this the same thing? In which case, if it is, I reckon the chiro probably did no harm. Painful fekkers though huh, them discs? Just come outta a three days neck/shoulder spasm (still got residuals going on) myself. Phew!
Hope you get a better NHS physio that I got....

chiropractors have been extremely helpful to me in the past.

in fact, i havent had any severe continuous back pain now for a few years, but had terrible problems in my 20s with my back and used the services of chiropractors for about 12 years in total, on and off as and when it was needed.

always helped me.

dessicated is probably the same thing, the discs have dehydrated, collapsed and are at present crumbling away, so the ickle biddy bits of bone move around and cause all sorts of interesting things to happen , with my vertebrae grinding away at each other with every movement
i dont think the chiro did any good, only tenporary pain relief, which was less effective with each visit- it was when he went on holiday and i met the polish bird it all went really pear shaped, came out of the door and spent about 4 months in complete agony immediatly afterwards
but im sure that there are people on here in a lot worse situations than me , so ill stop whineing about my troubles now and go bild up a 'biggun
peace

Aye that's the one! Fun, aint it ?


True, but there's nowt like letting things out every once in a while M8 Don't suffer alone and all that.

Rod - as I said - if youve expereiced something you take a different take on research than if you havent. The quote you give above suggests that teenagers are best not to use cannabis anyway.

Mesage in a bottle to Rod - no you shut up

If you change you attitude then there will be no more comments about shutting up from me.

The report suggests teenagers are best not to use cannabis this is a long way from your comments.

And the shutting up only applies to the statements that as a matter of fact cannabis causes psychosis in teenagers. any other input in discusions is welcome

Its a complicated subject and deserves more in-depth research not blatant propaganda.

Sigh

I have never said that cannabis causes schizophrenia in teenagers. I have said tht it is a risk factor, and this is why they should not use it. And nobody knows which teenagers are vulnerable and which arent. They might not even know that theyve got a relation with schizophrenia, for instance, and I would certainly not suggext that they should all have genetic test to see whos at risk and who isnt.


I am trying to get my head round a case for why legalisation would help keep teenagers away from cannabis. Many say that if it were legal then they would use it more, and any case if there was an age restriction it would still be effectively illegal for them so they would not be protected frm the illegal market etc. But age restrictions do make a difference. Course it wouldnt stop them using it if they really wanted to but it would be a much better framwork for them than there is now.

Rod - enough - too right its complicated, which is why tempted as I am
to do something very unpleasant to you with my pinking shears, I wont. Besides which it's offtopic.

Sigh
Risk? Maybe, could be. Let's say it is for as small percentage (just for arguments' sake). But to go on and add that youngsters "should not use it" is a HUGE leap of moral logic.
Tell a youngster he or she or it should not do something and guess what - Yep, they do it!!
As long as cannabis is placed in a dialectic framework of "legal/illegal" there is no hope.
It needs to be neither legal nor illegal, but NORMAL.
Normalisation leads to non sensational education and informed usage. A construct of Legal/Illegal leads into more and more of the labyrinth of moral nonsense.

Moral? Nothing to do with morality at all. Its a health issue.

And you cant have "normal" and "informed" without moving from illegal to legal.

Hang on Arnold, I think you're making that huge leap. The suggestion really is that kids should be discoraged from getting stoned and that they shouldn't be able to buy cannabis form commercial outlets. It's a sort of "best advised" kind of discouragement, not a "you do that and we'll arrest you" sort that's needed.


That is true to an extent, but don't take it too far. Kids do listen to people they respect. Yeah they're curious and that will always lead to a bit of experimenting, but what we have now is way more than that.


I know what you're saying, but the drab old "real world" gets in the way here. At the moment cannabis is illegal, that has to change and it has to become legal. Maybe, had we never got into this stupid situation of prohibition, then cannabis would ahve just "been", like cabbages, neither legal nor ilegal. But we're not in that situation now and we have to deal with what we have, not what we'd like it to be.

Fact is age limits are only possible if cannabis is legal and that is a powerful campaigning point.

Derek

well said that man

I think it takes the piss that the quacks on the show claimed the comt gene effected 25% of the population when it was only ever looking to be an issue for white boys but while this links still there peeps may like to see the latest research anyway.


http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mrm/Publicatio...chiatry%20b.pdf

Definitely one to take a copy of.

P.S Sellotape if you are interested in less propogandist research on environmental factors and their effects on the comt then try a google on comt autism and mercury poisoning. Perhaps Murray should do the same.

No. S said that because of risk young people "Should not use it". That is moral direction, based on the chance of a risk to a small percentage of a percentage....
As to the rest - yeah, well D, d'y'know I reckon we'll agree to differ.
In my view Cannabis is being set up as a scapegoat for the real reasons behind the mental health crisis of the modern age - enforced multi-chemical inhalations from birth (via the petrol rich atmosphere), totally stupid use of Pharmaceuticals in childhood, the disintegration of social fabric, and the enslavement of the populus to the profit margins of industry and the mass poisoning of the public by an out-of-control food industry. All PROVEN to destroy human health.
Worry about Cannabis? Larf? I nearly wet mesen.......

I will read this, thank you. Well Ill try.


And totally witout reeach foundation the issue of cannabis and mental health from my own experience is certainly not all white boys - mostly male but a disproportionaley high number of them are black and asian. And racism is another risk factor for mental illness.

It’s obvious that you are correct

but You have to feel sorry for the people who are so stupid their eyes don’t see what’s in front of them. They just go along with the party line, the government propaganda.

Hi.

After the research that I have done, regarding my illness and other issues that have an impact on my health, I have to agree with Arnold, I would like to expand it further though if I may.
It is not only from birth, but from conception, many of our receptors within our body for the normal balance of our system and other functions, are damaged, as our parents were damaged by the multi-chemical / hormonal impact on their bodies. This is with out mentioning much the fact that, the same thing is happening with infections, our children’s children, are showing signs now at a very early age of the onset of diseases – I am seeing it happen within my family, as well as others. So much is covered up by the PTB (powers that be) who ever they are, a few bits get out, and some people are in shock about it, others think it’s a load of poppy cock…thinking our gov’s etc wouldn’t allow something like that to happen…………Fact is…. They have and they still do………Cannabis is a good vehicle to use for a cop out, it is up to people to find out for themselves the truth behind what our doctors/gov’s are not telling us and share this information, so that you are able to make an informed choice. We are being hoodwinked by the gov’s of the world by the pipers they are paying…….it’s never about our benefit…you know the good ol people of this planet, it’s about how much more money they (who ever) can make, and sod anyone/thing that gets in the way or is damaged in the process.

Ttfn

P

PS:

I have just had an email in from a friend written by a md, concerning the food rules commission, (Codex Alimentarius Commission) which I am going to post up, another bit of how they are playing with the people and their lives….

This had better not be aimed at me Rod because if it is

a) you have not read my posts

Its another way of saying shut up, and Im sure others aresick of us getting at each other. Enough is enough.

If it isnt, I aologise

If the cap fits

Well it doesnt fit in the slighted. Doesnt even half cover my sticky out ears.

Oh yes, and the billions spent on nuclear weapons, submarines, ffs, it is the same small group of corporate shite heads that take our taxes, own the media, invade oil-rich nations, own the diamond and gold mines, own the factories producing the submarines....

The function of government is to disguise power, not to wield it.

The prohibition of drugs criminalises drug users and prevents them (supposedly) from speaking out against the atrocious behaviour of the "elites".

As shit suck murduck said, "We ignore internet at our peril, Murdoch warns editors ... Going off topic...

Incidentally, sello, I read the article you posted, funded by the wellcome foundation, is that glaxo-welcome, manufacturers of petro-chemical based anti-depressants and pain killers????

And just what kind of cannabis was used? was there a "control group"?

At best the paper is spurious and biased.
At worst, it is maniputalive and dangerous. (Edited to correct spelling....Ah, manipulative... dyslexic neurotic, most unerotic.. )

(After the revolution,Zapatistas, communistas, e revolucionarios, os invitamos a bailar... porque si no hay baile, no hay vida..... spies and traitors will be taken to the forest.....