UK420 > SWC - Krusty's bubbling buckets....

Sun Tzu

Mar 16 2005, 12:27 AM

I was just wondering if anyone had heard of a BC grower called Krusty, and his Freedom Bucket System. Believe me, its worth the capitals... If headroom isn't an issue, but plant numbers are, read on!

the attached pic is of Krusty in one of his rooms. I have more pics that illustrate his system fully, and am in the throes of setting up a room from scratch purely to run this system, so - if anyone is interested - I'll go into some detail.. helps thrash things out, to lay them out.

Anyways, it basically consists of a fusion of NFT with SWC. You have a bucket within a bucket. Large 25lt buckets are used, and the inner bucket must have lots of small holes in the bottom and lowest 5" of the sides to allow roots to grow through, whilst containing the grow medium (clay pebbles or lava rock) that it is filled will.

The inner bucket sits on a 1 gallon pot, upside down, that has holes threaded with air-line soaker hose. There is a drain hole in the side of the outer bucket 2-3 inches above the bottom, which leads to a drain line running back to a reservoir.

Nutrient comes via 2 feed lines into the top (inner - with the grow medium) bucket, constantly dripping through the medium, through the holes, collecting in the bottom 2-3" of the outer bucket. here it is pumped with masses of air to create a froth of bubbles, all bursting in the confines of the gap between buckets, coating the roots growing down with an NFT-type film, and also supplying lots of oxygen. Krusty also believes that the agitation of the roots plays a part in the huge yields he gets from each plant.

Another important factor is the lighting. K recommends 1 kw per plant, although I'm running 600w per plant. Bulbs hang vertically, amongst the plants, without reflectors. The advantages are many: the lack of a reflector means that the bulb is surrounded by plant matter in all the directions in which lumens output is highest. Also, unlike horizontal reflectors, the heat from the bulb is allowed to radiate straight upwards, the only direction in which there are no plants. Also, because of the interaction of the lights coverage areas, the lumens get ramped up out of all proportion to the wattage. A definite controbutary factor in obtaining buds as big as your best mate. The walls of the grow should be covered in Mylar to reflect as much light as possible.

Hmm, I'm going into too much detail too soon, here's WHY it works, we'll get to how later.

1-1.5 grams per watt per flowering cycle plus 3 weeks veg. Krusty has quoted yields of 3.5 lbs per 1,000 watt light. OK, he had 10 x 1000 watters, but ONLY 12 PLANTS! He got 30-odd lbs from 10 kw (roughly 15.5 kg) in 10 weeks. For anyone who thinks that running 10kw is risky, let me point out that you would only have to do 1 grow per year (maybe decade) and only be in possession of 12 plants during that grow. Besides, when I ran a design business from home I was getting through twice that much elecricity, most of it on 24hrs a day. 1 Desktop PC on 24hrs a day is the same as using 3-4 600w lights for 12 hours a day.

The grow I'm setting up is a 20 plant grow, with 14 x 600w HPS and 7 x 400w HPS. The area is 16' x 10' x 6', but a 3'x4' area is blocked off to accomodate pumps, reservoirs and ballasts. Air extraction and (later) Co2 will be in roof-space. All the walls and ceiling are covered in mylar, with a 6" hole above each lamp. The lamps are arranged so they are approx 4' apart in a chess-board pattern, alternating lamp-bucket-lamp. A floor-plan will follow, and if theres interest I'll do a step-by-step as I set it up.

Looking forward to your thoughts... oh, and praise be for Krusty!

[attachmentid=32556]

cf

Mar 16 2005, 12:36 AM

also i believe called a 'freedom grow' popular where the law takes a particular view on plant numbers .

i have seen brits on OG do similar set ups but this is fresh territory on this site unless i'm mistaken ...looking forward to this sun

captin crohns

Mar 16 2005, 01:20 AM

Joined his website quite a while ago....

the hanging light thing drew me to the colisium also. damb good yeilds.

problem i found with KFB was the size of the air pump needed and the noise it would produce... aint exactly steathly... but damb good results. VGR's method reminded me of it.

the pump needed requires high psi...

n e 1 who has looked into aeroponics may know that true aero rerquires 40psi... the pumps are hard to find for water, but they appear to be quieter than the air pumps. Car pumps run at 15 psi... and make a racket.

If u solve this one get back 2 me.... i'd be very interested in giving it a go.

cheers
CC

Sun Tzu

Mar 16 2005, 02:07 AM

I've got a 50 litre per minute air pump for koi ponds. Can run up to 80 air-stones at 3m depth, should be OK for 20 plants with 2" in the bottom of each. Eighty seven quid from Ebay!

Nute pump is Draper 100 ltre per minute, again around eighty quid trade.

captin crohns

Mar 16 2005, 03:51 AM

can't remember the specific size of pump.... it's on OG somewhere.

I know of the pump ur on about, seen them myself, ask krusty and he told me not strong enougth

he said that u need a "frothing" action.... like the bottom of a waterfall... lots of oxygen but if u put ur hand in it it feels sort of like bubble bath forth...

get it?

i'll go lucky for the specifics 4 ya 2night

Owderb

Mar 16 2005, 06:47 AM

What extraction fan are you gonna use and how close do you think you are going get the bulbs to the plants
Are you runnin an aircon unit or somethin to keep the temps right

MU

Mar 16 2005, 09:58 AM

krustys tree growing threads are awesome...

his buckets seem very much like aqua farms to me... although i havent really checked them out properly.

Sun Tzu

Mar 16 2005, 02:26 PM

Cheers, Captin! I can always double up on the pumps, if need be. They are large diaphragm jobs so only run at 35watts.

Owderb, I've got a 165 m3/min fan that is part of a loop of ducting that runs round the roof cavity with evenly spaced inlets. The fan pushes the air through charcoal, over the ballast area and then straight upwards. The air is hot by the time it leaves and goes straight up. There will also be a few passive vents around, charcoal filtered for the outlets, and one way inlets at ground level. I've been using the same system for the last few years, but this is on a slightly bigger scale and I hope its up to it. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

I've got slightly less room for each plant than Krusty specifies, but then I'm using 600's and 400's, so the plants can get that little bit closer. With the heat going vertical, there shouldn't be a problem getting to within 12" of the bulb, and it'll take a BIG plant to get that close. I worked up a plan of the room in Photoshop, so that the lights are represented by a decreasing intensity of white over a black background. I made it so that the strength of white (L in LAB colourspace) matched the lumens value from a 600 watt HPS, falling off as per the inverse square rule. This way I can place as many lights in the room as I want, wherever I want, and check the amount of lumens by using the colour picker and pippette. I'll dig out the Jpeg of the end result, so Photoshop users can have a go. I doubt I'll be able to upload a PSD so the layers won't be moveable though.

To cut a long waffle short: It seems that at the level the lights will be at, the bottom of the bulb being roughly 6" below the top of the plant, the lamps' areas of coverage overlap, so that there is an optimum spacing at which the level of lumens is roughly consistent throughout the room (30,000-35,000 lumens) except for a zone extending 12" around each bulb where the lumens reach 60,000+ lumens, which wo'nt be utilised, and a 12" zone directly above the centre of the bucket, where the level is only 20,000). The lowest lumens level at bulb height in the room is 11,000 in the extreme corners of the room.

I will need to run aircon in the summer, either that or not bother with Co2, as I'll have to vent lots.

Here's a couple of examples of how the lumens are ramped up when you use multiple vertical lights.....[attachmentid=32601][attachmentid=32602][attachmentid=32603]

Sun Tzu

Mar 16 2005, 02:31 PM

Duh! Here's the other two:[attachmentid=32604][attachmentid=32605]

RAZ

Mar 16 2005, 03:26 PM

Very interesting Sun Tzu

.....
Good to help work lumens out at the cross over point

RAZ

loveweed

Mar 16 2005, 04:52 PM

very interesting stuff Sun Tzu.

You say the yield was 1 to 1.5 grams per watt. Do you happen to know what variety was being grown? This would give me a bench mark to view how impressive that was. (pretty impressive anyway i might say!).

Picture is stunning mate....

loveweed

Mar 16 2005, 04:56 PM

I forgot to say... THREE FECKIN WEEKS VEG ONLY!. for that yield.Thats good.

And yes there is lots of interest to see a step by step as you go along.

Thanks again Sun Tzu

Sun Tzu

Mar 16 2005, 09:16 PM

The strain in the photo was BC Big Bud. I'll be giving AK 47 and Sensi Big Bud a whirl. I'll be happy if I get close to Krusty's yields within the next year.

the reason I'll only be vegging three weeks is that, using the SWC with extreme air, you should be able to get the plants to the neccesary 24"-36" in that time. If I let them go any longer than that they'll be bent over on the ceiling. I've got a pic of that somewhere from another BC grow. The headroom in the room I'm in at the moment is over 7', but the big room will only have 6'. Roughly 20" of that is taken up by the buckets and lifters, which raise the buckets above the highest part of the drain system. It'll take me a couple of goes to work out the right time to switch so they finish at ceiling height.

It looks like it will be a good few weeks before the 3-phase supply is installed, so I'm just going to be monkeying around till then. A step by step will be forthcoming, I assure you! Watch this space....

Bish

Mar 16 2005, 09:26 PM

QUOTE

A step by step will be forthcoming, I assure you! Watch this space.

Can't wait!

captin crohns

Mar 16 2005, 11:41 PM

For those unable to get a thomas air pump, it's specs maybe? psi and lpm or cubic feet per min maybe, or suggestions if those big ass Alita or The Pump 40(80-100 even)

Thomas Air Pump
Model # 907/915
1.6 psi @ 0 psi
1/15 HP
no out put volume of air.

here's where i got the info from: http://www.overgrow.com/edge/showthread.ph...15&pagenumber=1

so i may stand corrected

how loud is ur pump????

captin crohns

Mar 17 2005, 02:05 AM

u just rekindeled an old flame

look into biobuckets by Hurtback

if u read enougth u'll find out WHY some methods are so effective

in brief

Aggitation of root zone: this is agreed upon by many of the large yield growers like jon jaffa, hurtback etc... think about what systems are good at fast veg growth. NFT, drip trickles, foaming and bubles from buckets and spray from the aero.

Good Bacteria: Hurtback gets credit for exploring the water cycles... hence use lava rocks for medium to give a place for bacteria to live.

movement of water... basically water has to move to be healthy

O2 to rootzone... hurtback believes it is not needed as much as people say( his system uses no air pumps, just a waterfall effect, he claims good yields like KFB) However it quite undenighable that more oxygen is better, just look at aerosystems. However his point is clear when u look at some aerosystems where the roots are sagging/colapsing and are brown. which leads me to the next point...

Root space: ever heard n e one say more root space = better yeild... plants prefer to grip onto something.

I've designed system time and time again taking these into account. Using lava rocks in a aero. No one seems to be trying aero on one plant, just SOGs... (not hydo/aero like water farm... although damb good, not a true aero) for example.
Even a cros between a waterfarm and NFT filled with lava rock... give me a headache

problems appear to be

water volume (especially in attics)
noise (airpumps aren't stealthy on a large scale)
power usage (all the extra bits add up)
Temperature of water (had previous trouble with buckets getting warm)
Veg time (faster/more vigourous, the better)
Head room (low cielings and sativa =

)

av a looky tell me when ur eds bust

Sun Tzu

Mar 17 2005, 01:27 PM

Doh! I just sent you a PM, Captin, but realise that I'm teaching Granny to suck eggs! Sorry dude!

I think the single plant thing is important, as a tangled mass of roots only makes sense to me if they're not in competition with each other, but all feeding the same plant.

As far as the O2 goes, I've had airlines kinked and not noticed for a couple of days and ended up with horrible brown roots in that time, whereas they are normally white as you like. I've only ever seen roots go like that in Aero when the powerheads clog, though.

Krusty was always pretty convinced that the agitation of the roots by the bubbles contributed to the uptake of nutes in a positive way, and less medium (more free space) should equal more roots, no?

I am keen on trying one improvement to the system that came from a non MJ-related hydro-site, never heard any mention of it here, or at CW or OG. You take one of those plant misters (sprayers) to bits, removing both springs and the small plastic diaphragm, oh and the trigger. You're left with a right angle aero nozzle that has cost about a quid (much less painful to replace than a 20.00 powerhead IMO - which has always put me off. I'm thinking of diverting one of the feed lines to one of these inside each outer bucket. The area that is requiring some jiggery-pokery is getting a fine mist with the far reduced pressure coming from the pump, I just get a jet at present (I didn't realise how much pressure was produced in one of those cheaop sprayers - must have to do with the tiny volume of pressurized liquid allowed past the diaphragm). Once I've sorted that out, possibly with some kind of baffle in front of the jet, I will buy a box of the phuckers!

To address you final issue:
Water volume in attics. .... well, first off look at the way the central heating tank is installed, and copy the installation for the active res, but with a powerful enough pump to carry the liquid to the buckets you could theoretically site the res anywhere below the level of the buckets, even outside the property. The actual volume in the buckets is relatively small - only 3" deep, and whatever liquid is in the drain and feed systems will have its weight spread out.

Noise..... I've found the KoiPro to be only slightly louder than the tiny whisperjet I use for my bubble-cloner. The noise of the bubbles is louder than the pump by a long chalk. Besides, constant noise is hard to hear, and easy to get used to, even for neighbours!

Temp of water....... I've covered all my buckets entirely in that metal tape they use for air-con ducting. It definitely helps. Also, you can increase the size of the res (more volume slows the heat build-up, increase the nute circulation, install a res cooler, or - as I am doing at the mo' for the big room - sink the res in the ground. Or, install A/C and cool the air (the bubbles will even out the differential between the ambient air temp and the water temp.

Personally I found the heat harder to control in DWC, which is partly what attracted me to KFB's.

Veg time...... this covers head room, aswell. I'm pre-vegging in a seperate area, under horizontals, with the buckets right next to each other. The amount of veg you give them ultimately dictates the finishing height, but obviously that is vastly strain-dependent. Speaking of which I wouldn't have thought that Sats, low ceilings and KFB's were a match made in heaven.

captin crohns

Mar 18 2005, 12:44 AM

QUOTE(Sun Tzu @ Mar 17 2005, 02:27 PM)

Doh! I just sent you a PM, Captin, but realise that I'm teaching Granny to suck eggs! Sorry dude!

Krusty was always pretty convinced that the agitation of the roots by the bubbles contributed to the uptake of nutes in a positive way, and less medium (more free space) should equal more roots, no?

[right][snapback]326815[/snapback][/right]

DId the same a responed to the pm 1st... cheers 4 the info pal.

The thing about the roots in the air space is this.And it's just a theory.... if the have something to grow around then the general root area is more spread, better supporting the plant, but also as less roots are in contact with each other the nute uptake is greater... no backing for this, just notice that plants like to grip onto something...

could be just thinking too much... what u reckon?? have something to grip onto... or better to have an air gap... ???

cheers 4 all the info, nice 2 c someone with the same passion for hydro/aero design.

CC

Sun Tzu

Mar 18 2005, 02:18 AM

The thing about the air-gap seems to be allowing a space with limited air exchange in which you get the 'aero effect', where the roots are being misted by spray from the bursting of so many bubbles being driven upwards by the air-stream creating the bubbles. Combined with the NFT effect created by the nutes drip-fed from the top bucket this should mean that the roots have access to feed and oxygen anywhere in the bottom bucket. I have noticed more of the fine lateral feeder roots on the roots in the airgap than the ones in the solution, but I guess the only real way of knowing is to try alternatives.

There might be a way of having the best of all worlds. Picture the bottom bucket, with a drain 5" above the bottom, instead of 3". The bottom 3" will instead be filled with gravel, so there will be 2"of clear solution above the gravel to froth. The air-line could be buried right at the bottom, under the gravel, and - I reckon - it would only improve the dispersion of bubbles, aswell as supplying a medium for the roots to grow into. I do remember being amazed, when I started growing in soil in pots on gravel trays, that when I finally moved the pots, post harvest, there were these long tendrils in amongst all the gravel, surviving on run-off. Didn't seem to matter how big the pots were either.

The list of experiments keeps getting longer

Anyway, here's a diagram of a Krusty Freedom Bucket.[attachmentid=32684]

oni

Mar 18 2005, 09:10 PM

I have done some work in the past with spray nozzles http://www.delavan.co.uk/ is a good place to get info on different types of nozzles but don't ask them about prices

not unless you want to order 100's and even then it's not cheap!

Sun Tzu

Mar 19 2005, 12:24 AM

Wow. My vocabulary has just increased significantly from looking at that site. Good find! I think I might have to come with a good blag to get some samples.

oni

Mar 19 2005, 08:15 PM

My work involved gas scrubber systems. I have wondered if the same technology would work for growing plants. If I can find the time I will draw you out a little plan. The basic gas scrubber tower works on the principle of very large surface area for fluid and gas exchange. The packing in the tower would be a perfect medium for the roots to grow over because of there large surface area. I would like to think of it like a 3D NFT.

doodle

Mar 22 2005, 01:02 PM

i'm attempting a tree grow at the minute with a big bubbler, just wondering if the drip feeder makes a big difference?

rancid-nomad

Jun 11 2005, 11:33 PM

Hi all

I'm interested in the krusty buckets and can't wait to upgrade a room to this method , currently have nft . good solid grows . but these buckets and the silvery white root hairs are amazing , good roots = good plants , well usually

.

The problem as i read in these and other forums are the air pumps , i know , again , but no quality like the Thomas , or so it seems . but check this link and tell me what you think . Looks like just the thing for me . high pressure , low noise and high out put all at a reasonable price .

If i find no better then this will be the one for me . Not for about 6 months , but you have to do the groundwork early , maybe experiment with 1 bucket to get the feel of the system . Just sit it in the corner of a room thats already running . right i'm off , good night .

koi air pumps

shi

Jul 15 2005, 11:42 PM

rancid-nomad
I use that secoh air pump. excellent.
super quite. i would go as far as to say the best pumps out there .....the only problem a bit expensive.
one love
shi

YourDrooganLeader

Jul 21 2005, 06:36 PM

QUOTE(Sun Tzu @ Mar 16 2005, 04:07 AM)

I've got a 50 litre per minute air pump for koi ponds. Can run up to 80 air-stones at 3m depth, should be OK for 20 plants with 2" in the bottom of each. Eighty seven quid from Ebay!

Nute pump is Draper 100 ltre per minute, again around eighty quid trade.
[right][snapback]325945[/snapback][/right]

i got a 90l/min for a tenner afew months back on ebay (the best place for grow gear on a budget), still aint used it yet but will be doing soon:-) do you (or any1 else for that matter)have any good tips on how to soundproof a pump? i am going to be running 2 pumps, 1 x 6 line 90l/min piston pump and 1 x 4 output line aquarium pump to grow 10 ak47s in bubblers. they make quite a racket even when hung on rubber connectors to eliminate vibration noise. any other stuff i can do to try and take the noise down to that of, say a freezer motor? my homemade air extraction silencer works a dream and i really want to use the pumps to grow in bubblers but the noise has to be kept down. problems and questions and solutions, thats what makes this good:-) oh, and a nice smoke ;-)

devin828

Aug 31 2005, 07:01 PM

DWC OR SWC

Be afarid be very afarid
of the unknown

The PUMP is the Key
35 watts
60 liter/min

Tis my 2 cent worth

devin828

peter

Jan 13 2006, 11:44 AM

hi
Plenty of people copy,d crusty,s system to the letter even taking step by step instructions from the clown himself

but none ever got yealds as big.
One reason imho was he was using a big bud strain which wouldnt get my granny stoned
and wouldnt be reguarded as a desirable product here in my town all loose n airy...yuck...
plus he used a giant A/C + big amounts of co2 + a compressor. After seeing lots of failed freedom bucket yeald targets over at overgrow I am still not convinced he got the yealds he claims and appart from those same early pictures i havent seen him repeat the results since.
my 0.2
peter.

mr welly smeed

Dec 6 2007, 08:17 PM

Been reading lovelybudly's thread in budshots about krusty bucket grow..Did some searching and found this thread..Thought i would give it a bump as it really got me thinking...Stonking grow??
Welly smeed..

alien12

Dec 8 2007, 03:17 PM

hey devin828 I have been thinking about getting one of those air pumps but was put off when someone told me how loud they were. Can you tell me if they are loud?

river king

Dec 8 2007, 06:21 PM

QUOTE(mr welly smeed @ Dec 6 2007, 08:17 PM)

Been reading lovelybudly's thread in budshots about krusty bucket grow..Did some searching and found this thread.

Me too.
Tried find the site overgrow but seems to have been shut down by canadian authorites, pity This krusty bucket stuff has got the cogs turning though. So keep the thread alive peeps some of want to know more.
R.K.

lovelybudly

Dec 16 2007, 10:57 PM

well Krustys reputation was infact based on one or maybe 2 photos.................

alien12

Feb 3 2008, 04:46 PM

I found a thread on another site where someone downloaded krustys original threads and has reposted them. I don't think I'm allowed to give links to other sites. Am I allowed to pm them?

mardavarot

Aug 30 2008, 12:04 AM

Hi man. Where did you see this tread? Can you let me know pls. Reagards

prawn

Sep 2 2008, 09:44 AM

Great thread to keep alive, very interesting...

alien12

Sep 2 2008, 10:12 AM

I cant post this in forum as its against the rules, or is it? I cant pm it to you mardavarot as your pm is off.

Herbal Kint

Sep 21 2008, 05:44 PM

QUOTE(Sun Tzu @ Mar 16 2005, 12:27 AM)

I was just wondering if anyone had heard of a BC grower called Krusty, and his Freedom Bucket System. Believe me, its worth the capitals... If headroom isn't an issue, but plant numbers are, read on!

the attached pic is of Krusty in one of his rooms. I have more pics that illustrate his system fully, and am in the throes of setting up a room from scratch purely to run this system, so - if anyone is interested - I'll go into some detail.. helps thrash things out, to lay them out.

Anyways, it basically consists of a fusion of NFT with SWC. You have a bucket within a bucket. Large 25lt buckets are used, and the inner bucket must have lots of small holes in the bottom and lowest 5" of the sides to allow roots to grow through, whilst containing the grow medium (clay pebbles or lava rock) that it is filled will.

The inner bucket sits on a 1 gallon pot, upside down, that has holes threaded with air-line soaker hose. There is a drain hole in the side of the outer bucket 2-3 inches above the bottom, which leads to a drain line running back to a reservoir.

Nutrient comes via 2 feed lines into the top (inner - with the grow medium) bucket, constantly dripping through the medium, through the holes, collecting in the bottom 2-3" of the outer bucket. here it is pumped with masses of air to create a froth of bubbles, all bursting in the confines of the gap between buckets, coating the roots growing down with an NFT-type film, and also supplying lots of oxygen. Krusty also believes that the agitation of the roots plays a part in the huge yields he gets from each plant.

Another important factor is the lighting. K recommends 1 kw per plant, although I'm running 600w per plant. Bulbs hang vertically, amongst the plants, without reflectors. The advantages are many: the lack of a reflector means that the bulb is surrounded by plant matter in all the directions in which lumens output is highest. Also, unlike horizontal reflectors, the heat from the bulb is allowed to radiate straight upwards, the only direction in which there are no plants. Also, because of the interaction of the lights coverage areas, the lumens get ramped up out of all proportion to the wattage. A definite controbutary factor in obtaining buds as big as your best mate. The walls of the grow should be covered in Mylar to reflect as much light as possible.

Hmm, I'm going into too much detail too soon, here's WHY it works, we'll get to how later.

1-1.5 grams per watt per flowering cycle plus 3 weeks veg. Krusty has quoted yields of 3.5 lbs per 1,000 watt light. OK, he had 10 x 1000 watters, but ONLY 12 PLANTS! He got 30-odd lbs from 10 kw (roughly 15.5 kg) in 10 weeks. For anyone who thinks that running 10kw is risky, let me point out that you would only have to do 1 grow per year (maybe decade) and only be in possession of 12 plants during that grow. Besides, when I ran a design business from home I was getting through twice that much elecricity, most of it on 24hrs a day. 1 Desktop PC on 24hrs a day is the same as using 3-4 600w lights for 12 hours a day.

The grow I'm setting up is a 20 plant grow, with 14 x 600w HPS and 7 x 400w HPS. The area is 16' x 10' x 6', but a 3'x4' area is blocked off to accomodate pumps, reservoirs and ballasts. Air extraction and (later) Co2 will be in roof-space. All the walls and ceiling are covered in mylar, with a 6" hole above each lamp. The lamps are arranged so they are approx 4' apart in a chess-board pattern, alternating lamp-bucket-lamp. A floor-plan will follow, and if theres interest I'll do a step-by-step as I set it up.

Looking forward to your thoughts... oh, and praise be for Krusty!
:bush: [attachmentid=32556]

no wonder there buds are huge look at the bulb on that pic.its bigger than my head ffs is that a 2200w