this is an ongoing problem i've had for months now and i am past the tearing my hair out stage and looking at the nearest highest building in thought!

please, please, please, what is going on with this plant?

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachment

i used to grow pretty care free, plant the plants, grow the plants, harvest the plants, easy

then problems started to happen in the flower room

2/3 weeks in and the lower leaves would yellow, turn like this, and then die, giving extremely reduced yields

if i didn't put the sysytem onto almost plain water, then the plant would almost die

so, i put it down to how i was growing and the gung ho approach i had to it (which had brought results for over ten years) and sorted out my grow style

didn't use to measure ph - now do it every day
use to use feed according to bottle, which gave ec of 2.1 and over - now anything over 1.1 and i think i'm pushing it

this particular cutting has been on ph 5.8, ec 1.1 for three weeks since rooting, my tap water is ec 0.6

last week looked like beginnings of a mg deficiency, so added some epsom salts

this week i now have this, which is a progression of what i thought was the mg defieciency, same leaves

the plant is due to be put into flower in a couple of weeks

i don't think its not enough food as it gets worse if you increase the feed level

could be nutrient lock out, but why? and why am i experiencing it now after so long

i'm now thinking i might of caught something and i'm just passing it from one generation to the next

like an infection of some kind

but this falls flat on its face as my mate is using the same mother stock and is hunky dory (just got 0.9g/watt from this strain (pot of gold))

i really need some help here guys, i'm out of ideas, and noone i speak to is anything other than stumped

plant has been under an 400w T5 on a 18/6 schedule

Hi. I don't practice the dark arts, but maybe you are underdoing it a bit now

How do the roots look? (I'm thinking pythium or similar... )

Stan

the roots were looking good, they seem to be losng their healthy whiteness tho

if i have pythium it would be the first time, can you tell me if it is capable of staying dormant in a plant? cos these seem to grow really well, then its like the brakes are slammed on and from then on in, whatever i do, the best i can get is to barely keep the plant alive

are the symptons similar to this?

i read yesterday which caused me to post this thread (sorry to whoever's diary it was as i can't recall the name other than begins with "S"! thabks though!), anyhow, he grew for the first time in the same bubblers that i use and reminded me of how easy it all used to be, the rootballs i used to be amazed by, the awesome growth and return

memories that are becoming more and more distant.....

when this has happened before (every time during the summer) the roots have never taken properly in the nft, however healthy they were before. These cuttings, the ones before, AND the ones before have both done exactly the same

i thought it was me with the feed, although i did question why after all these years my feeding was suddenly so off, and the plants suddenly so temperamental

i'm seriously thinking of throwing what i have and starting again from seed - it really is that bad and has stopped me getting anything decent since earlier this year

its a big decision, but i've wasted months already

has anyone else done this?

did it sort your troubles?

this is really damaging my confidence, boo hoo

The leaves look a bit scorched/burnt to me, they're not too close to the light or fan are they?

I feel for you man. I used to grow carefree and used to get whoppers. These days my plants just don't seem to swell up like they used to but I've always suffered a bit from yellow leaves lower down (nevermind how much N I feed it). Also, my roots always look brown with no side hairs so I'm sure that's the 'root cause' of my problem . I'm not quite sure what to do about it whether it needs more oxygenation or the soil temps are getting too high. But I really don't know what I'm doing differently from what I used to! I grow in soil but I can certainly share your frustration!!

In 3 words, yes - sort of...

Last year (at around the beginning of summer) I began to experience similar problems - up until that point I'd had grows that had raced-along. Then suddenly they appeared to struggle to develop good root systems - they'd grow to a certain stage and then droop, turn yellow & develop rusty spots.

At the time I started again from seed & was relieved that the plants grew as vigorously as ever. For the rest of the year I had no probs.

This year the same thing happened - but I've also spent the last few months trying different things to see whether I can identify & solve the problem without starting-over. I've tried all-sorts with my cuts but they all seem to result in damping-off or death soon-after.

The evidence is pointing towards my mum's having a systemic pythium infection so I'm currently restocking them from seed - can't do any harm and I'm fed-up with faffing around. I've now started to sterilise my res. as a matter of routine, but this appears to delay the inevitable if I'm right & my plants have a systemic infection. If that don't work then I'm going to jack-in NFT for a while - it's not worth the bother & expense.

So yeah - last year it did solve my problems to start again from seed (for a while)...

I've done a bit of reading and pythium isn't a single straightforward pathogen - it seems to cover a range of pathogens, seems to vary in how aggressive it is and is quite an opportunist infection which means that it's often hanging-around waiting for conditions to be right to start causing problems. These conditions appear to be anaerobic, warm & humid (so it's a problem in summer). So I suggest it's pointless trying to get rid of it, it's ubiquitous... the trick is to prevent it getting a hold in your system/plants.

It's a real shit - if you read around you'll have probably found that it strikes even the most experienced growers... (See the first few lines of this post: http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1158720)

I've attached a word document with perhaps the best information about pythium that I've found to-date (read the text in blue on p3-4; Source here):

Click to view attachment
I'm not saying you've got pythium - as I say I've done a lot of detective work & followed a process of elimination to get to my current thinking...

I've read a few threads (on here & elsewhere) by people who have had their growing activities curtailed for a few months while they sort-out what ails their plants - pythium does appear quite regularly... (Google: "systemic pythium infection cannabis" and see what you get)

ATB

Stan

E2A - I'm also experimenting whether I've been using too-much rooting hormone (I've heard that it can hinder root development/branching)... So I'm trying pretty-much everything...

Mine stop feeding once they start to look ropey.. I put it down to root damage/probs... So IME it's quite possible to have the plants on a low EC at 3wks and not notice any feeding... (my background is also 0.6)

This might be why you're facing problems and your mate isn't, despite using the same stock. If conditions in your grow-room are more suitable for opportunistic pathogens than his then you're more likely to suffer from probs...

Mine are fine if I grow in coco (it seems) - the probs start when they get put into my hydro system/water culture.

Sorry to bang-on - I've been tearing my hair-out for the last couple of months - same last year too (see here)... last post on this - I swear - there's gotta be some other opinions/explanations out-there...

ATB

Stan

thanks stan

you have made it a little easier to do what i have to do, having read your posts

i've never thrown plants before and it makes me a little sick in my stomach the thought of it, but they're not looking any better and i think i'm gonna do it n throw them all n start over

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went to the attitude seeds site yesterday and purchased some new seed stock

was happy about the 10% discount and even happier to get two lots of freebies that was totally unexpected

i think you could well be right about the pythium and i'm gonna have a good read of the links you gave

my mate and i are using the same stock, but not from the same mum last year, his came from another mates mum he reminded me yesterday (that i had originally given to the other mate couple of years back before all this shite)

so his havn't seen my grow. i gave him some cuttings couple of weeks back and they are now showing same symptons, so it does seem suspect

growing in nft is a nightmare for this too as ALL(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) the plants in the table (i have 12 in my 8ft) are affected eventually

i've got 12 cuttings from a juicy fruit mum that are just starting to come through

i've moved them to a seperate location, so it doesn't share the nutrient of the "infected" plants

roots started to come through over the weekend before i moved them, would they be infected as well do you think?

if i start afresh (which i'm going too - throw mums i've got at the moment ) what do i need to do to clean the system?

run it through with H2O2? how bout the walls in room and carpet, can it live in/on those?

how bout sulphur? am i right thinking thats good for getting rid of airborne fungi?

No worries - sorry if it looks like I tried to dominate your thread - I've just spent so much time trying to sort-out my probs. that it all comes-out too easily & quickly...

Seems to me the simplest thing to do would be to sterlise you system and get some healthy cuts from your mate, get growing and see how they do... meanwhile you can be working on replacing your mums. That way you can still be moving forward and you get to see whether the problem is coming from your mums or from your environment or whatever (and you get new mums).


I've done it gradually myself... less painful


It doesn't actually look like pythium AFAIK (no drooping of leaves) but it sure does sound like some sort of systemic infection/weakness that's passed from generation-to-generation - so whether it's pythium or not, cleaning the system & using fresh plants might deal with it. I was kinda hoping someone else would give an opinion.


If they're healthy then I'd take a chance with them - if it is pythium, then it's often an opportunistic infection, taking advantage of weak,stressed plants - so if they're healthy then they won't have a problem keeping it at-bay.


See here: http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?auto...showarticle=542 Personally I'd just sterilise the system by flushing through with H2O2. According to what I've read the spores are aways hanging around anyhow, so I think you might be fighting a losing battle to completely sterilise the growroom - I reckon it's a better use of time to keep the plants from becoming infected (and if they're healthy then they're generally resistant).

Dunno about the sulphur...

I feel for you - it's really frustrating

ATB

STan

stan, it sounds like you've been through what i'm experiencing so you can carry on as much as you like my friend

i have asked other people, i saw that thread you sent before when trying to diagnose the problem, but they weren't keen to help by PM and havn't got involved on the forum when i've asked for help - shame

can you tell me how to do multi quotes so i can come back to you?

Hiya


Here's a word document that attempts to describe how I do it:
Click to view attachment

I generally assume that's 'cos they haven't got any better ideas to add & they're broadly in agreement with what's already been said... but it is easy to feel like noone cares

ATB

Stan

Ignore the one above - here's a better version:
Click to view attachment

- I've lost in-excess of 40 cuts, 3 out of 4 mums have gradually looked crap until they've died (compounded by being potbound ) If I hadn't been through similar last year I'd be freaking-out

Withnailed...

hi I have had same problems on nft and have switched to coco i found tiny bugs in medium which i think might be springtails they are tiny so hard to see .try pooring your feed water through your medium and roots catching water then look at the waters surface for tiny specs which wrigle about .

thanks for all your input stan, its well appreciated

i've been cruising round the links you've given and they're really informative

in your experience, can it pass from mum to cutting?

it can spread through the nutrient?

marmalade - i had fungus gnats, but sticky traps laid on top of the rockwool cubes soon sorted them, little white worms with a black head?

withnailed? am i missing something cos i don't understand

not fungus gnats ive had them too.springtails they fly too but look like very small specs of fag ash so you hardly ever see them

AFAIK yes... and also, being an opportunistic infection, if the cuts are from a weak mum they'll be more susceptible to infection anyhow... if I remember correctly it's called a 'cycle of infection'...


Yes - but will only be a problem if the spore-load is very high or if the plants are susceptible (according to what I've read)

We're surrounded by germs all the time (eg common cold) in the meduim that we live in (air)... people who are run-down or are exposed to a shit-load of the germs are more likely to be at risk - it's the same with plants... (sorry for the teacher-ish tone - I used to be a biology teacher and specialised in root-fungi (helpful & unhelpful) at uni...)

It's tricky 'cos I think 'pythium' is a phrase used/abused to describe a spectrum of pathogens that infect roots so the available info. isn't very specific, other than get rid of infected material and keep things clean.

Whatever the causal agent, it does sound like there's something in your plants that's getting passed-around and enjoys the summer conditions in your grow-room. Giving your kit a good clean and getting fresh stock-material is I think, under the circumstances, definitely worth considering seriously.

So, after about 20 posts we're back to where we started...

If we could get a more specific diagnosis then we could use a more specific treatment... but we don't have that diagnosis...


It's a UK420 phrase used when you make a post which you decide is rubbish or not very helpful... you can't actually delete the post... the phenomenon was noticed by a member called 'Withnail'. It's dropping out of fashion slowly I think...

ATB

Stan

withnailed, right ok, got it

so, are they living? the spores?

you said growing from seed sorted you for a while, i've ordered some seeds but am worried my equipment could be infected

worse thing for me would be for me to go through the hassle of generating some new stock only for it to reoccur

do you think it can stay on your equipment, like ph tester, ec meter, pumps, airline

how bout the tables themselves

i had two beauty pot of golds that came to me healthy and grew fine in my nft for about 2/3 weeks - huge in fact

but then the other plants started to go yellow, leaves die and fall off, the pot of golds followed eventually

its a right twat with an nft in that situation cos you lose the whole table

looking at owd's thread i'm tempted to grow in dirt (would be for the first time) until i'm in a position to replace the hydro stuff

but i hate gettin my hands dirty!

did you change anything other than get some fresh stock going?

not really, you've been a huge help, if just for the "someone who's been through it" aspect!

how do you get a proper diagnosis? (or is that the magic question!)

Time to use that selective quoting business...


No - and I think that was my mistake... Previously I've made mum's from plants that have been grown in my system (from seed or otherwise). I'm now playing with the idea that anything grown in my system is likely to be carrying infection, so this time around I'm starting my mums from seed in coco so they never even see my system/main growing space. The only mum that I've been able to grow-from this year is one that I grew from seed in this way, so it seems to be worth trying...

As mentioned - I've also started sterilising my res./nute solutions (especially in summer) as a precautionary measure - I'm using pythoff but I suspect it could be done more cheaply using small amounts of H2O2 more frequently.

The way I see it, this strategy would work regardless of whether it's Pythium or something else...


Get someone with experience & knowledge to look at the whole plant, the conditions that it's being kept in and probably take some (infected) tissue samples and look at them under a microscope to try to identify what's there... except we don't have plant hospitals! (or it would cost a stupid amount of money unless you were a big commercial grower) Looking at the knowledge base - it mentions a few of the culprits - Rhizoctonia, Phytophthora etc (see here). Otherwise it's a matter of suck & see I suggest...


Most definitely yes - one use of spores is that they can remain dormant whilst conditions are unfavourable (I think anthrax spores can still be viable after many hundreds of years). This strategy is also used by plants, bacteria etc. to endure periods of hardship


I'm out of my area of experience there since my situation has reccurred, but based on the theory...
Yes - our kit could be carrying a high spore load - this can be dealt with by dinsinfecting our kit. However it will never be 100% sterile (unless we make our grow-rooms like operating theatres) and we will never be 100% risk-free of recurring infestations even if we buy new kit - the best approach seems to be keep the stock healthy and our kit clean to a good, basic standard and the risks are minimised.


He's got some good coco threads - that's not compost so you can use some of your hydro kit to grow in coco...

I'm really resistant to changing my methods since I know they've worked well in the past and I've invested time, cash, effort etc. so I'm not quite ready to cut my losses & throw babies out with the bathwater just yet meself...

ATB

Stan

what nutes u using,are u using a spreader mat,is res oxygenated ???

hi storm

welcome

i always use spreader mat in the flowering nft, not while they're vegging cos it all gets clogged up

i pump air into all tanks, the 8ft flowering table has two lines into its 100l tank, the 4ft vegging tables just one into each of their 40l tanks

for cuttings i use clonex and H2O2

in veg, use formulex and canna aqua

flowering, use canna hydro & canna PK

ph down is used 2ml per 10litrs approx

hi there scoob,isnt the canna hydro 4 run to waste systems,had a bad experience using it myself in a recirc?

it is yeah, though i've been using it for years as a recirculating nute with no ill effects - until this year!

i first bought it because of the name, thought hydro would be the one i needed for nft, didn't know there was different types and seemed logical

its only been since my troubles started that i found out canna aqua is the one for recirculating systems

what was your bad experience?

was doin same as yourself, using aqua ,vega in veg and hydro flores in flower,my own fault picked up wrong bottle from shop,had some poorly looking plants all the way through flower,tried everything mate to no avail,dying leaves,thin looking stunted plants ,crap tasteless strenghthless yields , same strain on the aqua flores and my probs were solved,not sayin it is whats up with yours but worth a go hey

i have considered it, thats why i've aqua in the veg area now as i replaced with the aqua when the hydro ran out

but the problem continued.....

i don't think its the nutes cos of the time i spent successfully using it

stan's description is an almost exact description of what i've had happening

a bottle of aqua flores for a week or months down the pan , id give it a shot bud

Just a shame we can't get to the bottom of it quickly...

Is your mate using the same nutes also? If he's noticed the same signs using cuts from you, and he's using different nutes then that's also evidence suggesting that it's not purely nutes...

ATB

Stan

if u do give it a shot scoob chuck a bit of rhizotonic in the mix 2, and pull off all that dead and dying green,

i agree, it would be, although i've got this going on in the flowering room, the photo's in this thread are of the vegging plants which are on canna aqua vega under 18/6 light

i've got mates that use ionic (which i am going to use next time to get an exact comparison) and also canna aqua flores

the mate using the flores i gave him his cuttings and he's having trouble with those even though his grow is in buckets

i did try using formulex for the first couple of weeks in flower, but still the same result

i don't know if this is relevant or not, but a couple of months back we got some cuttings (4) from another source as we thought it could be the water supply causing the trouble. Both of us use(d) water from a cold water storage tank in the loft.

2 we watered using water from the loft storage tank and 2 we watered using the kitchen tap direct supply.

after a week it was blatantly obvious that the two being watered from the loft tank weren't enjoying themselves, minimal growth, browny roots

whereas the direct supply ones had white roots and had grown nice (no pics sorry)

we finished all four with direct supply water but the ones that were browny never really recovered whereas one of the others returned over 7oz

so now we BOTH use only direct supply form the kitchen, even though that means a LOT of extra work carrying buckets around as i use to water by hose connected to bathroom sink tap

is it possible the tank got infected somehow?

storm, your description also fits the bill!

if it was the nutes, that would beg the question why go SO wrong now when i was regularly getting 0.9g/watt using the hydro before growing white widow

i've cuttings that have got brown roots now

yeah defo mate ,could of been a rotting animal in there , well if it is a disease or infection of some kind im stumped and sorry to hear it bud,as for the aqua and hydro thingy bob using the hydro in a recirc will give deficiencys and will most likely make infections more likely,all the best with it scoobz

that old saying scoobz, what can go wrong will go wrong, just a matter of time i suppose,

thanks storm

thought about the rotting animal thing mesen, so got up there with a torch for a look see

they're both those black tanks with clip on lids, bout 100 litres

Makes sense to use nutes that are suitable for your system as a starter...

Yeah - if I was using water from a storage tank I'd sterilise it first... AFAIK mains supply tap-water has additives to keep nasties at bay so half the job's been done... that having been said it's not guaranteed that tap water is germ-free - depends on the state of your pipes etc. (I'm most certainly not a plumber!)

Good to get some more opinions - I suspect I'm wearing my 'pythium goggles' and am less likely to see other, simpler explanations that are worth considering...

ATB

Stan

he noticed the same signs alrite, not a happy bunny that i'd taken my shite over his place, even if it wasn't with any ill intent or intentional!

did help me get a step closer to sorting it out...

attack from all angles i say

hmm, simpler explanations, i've been through pretty much everything with this, its not like i'm not experienced, just not with this shite

but mebbe i've got the goggles on too!

that would also be about 5/6 other peeps i know who grow who are properly stumped by this too

you know, i used to work away from home mon - thu EVERY week for a couple of years, and STILL got 0.9g/watt

growing isn't that hard and i have to remind myself its a weed

i've thought its been or might be nutrient too strong, nutrient too weak, too high ph, fungus gnats, salt build up

my lights and temps are ok, if a slight bit high in the flower room - 31deg c

attack from all angles means at this moment to throw my stock and start again from seed, as everything else is, as far as i'm aware, spot on

The bugger is trying to establish whether that's cause or effect (or something else - just to add to the confusion) ...

I thought I'd got growing sorted too... just goes to show (something or other...)


Aye! - Forward on all fronts... or as many as you can muster...

ATB

Stan

il just send in the misses she a right battle axe


still be nice to know whats going on in there scoobz



4 any future probs

exactly my thoughts on the matter

Just as an asides...

I've got 8 skunks in my system (4wks from being taken as cuts from a regenerated mum) - they're healthier than the cuttings I've grown in previous months... but they were still looking ropey - straggly roots, dry, crustly larger/older fan-leaves, new growth was ramshorned etc.

So yesterday AM in a fit of 'I give the fuck-up' I turned the whole grow-room off (to save leccy) and left the plants in the dark overnight/24hrs with no feeding or watering (I was going to chuck them today when I found a minute).

I've just been in & found that they've picked-up overnight! - so I've turned everything back on & am only watering 2x a day for 20 mins to see what happens...

Still too bloody complicated though... there's no way the root systems/plants would be this sensitive based on previous grows - it's taken all my growing skills to get them to where they are now... but they look too promising to chuck...

I'm still not confident they'll make it much further though - they need to grow more roots & fast...

ATB

Stan

still a result there stan

my problem, far as i see it after talking with you guys is probably the following :-

i gave up growing end of last year for one reason or another, then decided to start again a few months later (i'm that kinda guy, make one decision then change it)

i'd lost all my plants, so instead of doing the sensible thing (as i know now) and getting some new seeds, i put the call out for some cuttings

noone at the time had any spare cept m8 of a m8 (oh this sounds so bad, even to me!), who had some AK47's he couldn't grow on

i took these, and i think thats how the shite got into my growroom, as a couple of these ended up wiv literally mush in their rootball

I WILL NEVER TAKE CUTTINGS LIKE THAT FROM SOMEONE AGAIN

but cos i'd never had any troubles like this before i thought i was saving time getting cuttings - doh!

as said before, with nft systems, everything gets infected eventually i guess cos of the shared nutrient

well, i've still got the AK's as cuttings, one i've just put in a bucket to grow on as a mum (see pic) (the one behind is an AK i've been trying insuccessfully to revive)

Click to view attachment

tho its growing, you can see the roots aren't looking too hot already

so, today, the AK's are all going as they're all descendants from those original plants and have probably got the shite in them

Looking better that mine! (shame I've not got a camera...) - but yeah - I'd expect the roots to be looking a little more prolific for a plant of that size...

Just out of interest - when you pull the plants out take a look at the crown (where the roots meet the stem) - mine look blemished/discoloured and there's frequently a bit of mush on the surface of the stem... if so then this is a sign of rot apparently - here's some pics I just pulled-off t'internet...

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

ATB

Stan

mornin stan

its not just that the roots aren't growing that fast/well

its also what they look like

i remember big chunky fuckers coming out the 1" rockwool cube when the cuttings took, not these feeble spider web type roots i'm getting now

i've taken some cuttings 10 days ago from a healthy juicy fruit and the roots just starting to come through on those are chunky monkey

the one at the top in particular in this photo below

Click to view attachment

unlike the roots on the AK cuttings which have turned this colour over the last few days

Click to view attachment

thats good then? maybe not, as up until i noticed the AK roots browning all the cuttings were using the same nutrient solution

i moved the juicy fruit's out but i'm para they've been touched by the lurgy and will turn eventually

this is why i think i may of had it for so long, cos each successive lot at some point share space with the previously infected plants

'Mornin... (actually it's not that bad... was up at a reasonable hour today...)


- Tell me about it!


Well - according to the theory if they're healthy then the should be able to fend it off.

Never asked you how you kept your mums? - Bubblers I presume looking at your pics...

hi stan ive had the exact same problems as u and scooby snax for 4 [long] years ,
i now grow in coco after more than 10 years of growing on nft, but still got the same problems.
-slow growth-bad roots- but still managed to get to harvest.
someone told me to run some water thro the plants and check the water, there are little specs which jump around on the surface of the water
and very tiny worms in the water 10xmag.
looking on the internet i think they are springtails, it says they aren't pests but eat organic material like earthworms, but in soilless mediums
they eat the plants roots!!
so it might be worth just 5 minutes of your time to swill them through,
I still haven't found out how to get rid of them tho,
I have found that drying the medium out-nearly to the point of wilting-gives the plant a fresh start and new white roots appear.
in coco but not in rockwool.

i woke feeling quite refreshed this mornin, think this thread helped a lot in that!



i hope so!


yes, had them in bubblers for as long as i can remember, bout once a year grew a cutting on when mum started gettin bonsai-ish

just used to feed them all the time on 1/2 strength formulex, never used to check ph and they grew like triffids

use to just grow white widow all the time