Okay, having read through all the threads I can find I think I've overloaded my brain and I don't feel like I have any more idea than I did a month ago.
I'm looking to buy some compost from my local GC (no Homebase or B&Q nearby) and I'm not sure what's the best bet out of the brands they stock. The GC has Levington's with JI 1,2 or 3, JAB with JI no2 (Don't know why they only had the no.2, didn't ask if they normally have all three, but there was no gaps in the pallets so I don't think they were just out of stock) or Westlands West+ and Westlands West+ Peat Free. They also have organic potato grobags, bags of organic horse manure and bags of vermiculite. I'm intending to use Bio-Bizz Fishmix if that's of any relevance.
I'd planned on getting the Levington's with JI no1 for the seedlings and the West+ peat free for potting on. Does that sound ok? Or is the Levingotn's not as good as the JAB? Also, I've read a post tonight that said that the peat free was a bad idea, and another post that said that PM products don't work well in peat based composts :confused: I've just ordered some essence and granules on the combined advice of, well, nearly every soil grower here, so I don't want to end up with a compost that is incompatible.
To top it all, I'd really like to be as organic as possible, but I read a post by Ot1 saying that JI is def not organic, and I know that peat is not ecologically sound so I'm going round in circles. I can live with not being 100% organic,but just want to aim there if you see what I mean.
Someone help me make a decision!
Full Version: Compost Advice
Hello OG I have been in the same frame of mind as yourself, and also read the same info given out by OT.
I have tried westlands+ and am at the moment doing a side by side grow using westlands+ and the organic compost alos available from my local store, up until now, the organic compost is doing just as well as the westlands ones, I do add worm castings in with both.
If the organic compost gives as near as damn it results as the westlands does, then I shall stick with the organic compost
I have tried westlands+ and am at the moment doing a side by side grow using westlands+ and the organic compost alos available from my local store, up until now, the organic compost is doing just as well as the westlands ones, I do add worm castings in with both.
If the organic compost gives as near as damn it results as the westlands does, then I shall stick with the organic compost
Hopefully this won't add to your confusion.....
Compost wise it looks like you are basically looking at the following:
1. Composts sold as John Innes mixes -
Available in 1 2 or 3, depending on the strength of the (chemical) nutes in them.
These generally contain at least 50% loam (i.e soil, grit, sand, clay) and the rest is mainly peat. They should support a great microherd such as introduced by Plant Magic products but have the disadvantage that they are very heavy, set like concrete and are difficult to rewet if they dry to much, and hold a hell of a lot of water when they are wet so can easily go a little anearobic. Basically they are potentially difficult to work with.
2) Multipurpose with added John Innes.
Not normally sold in 1,2 and 3 formulations AFAIK. These are generally mainly peat about 70% ish, plus some loam (the JI), and maybe some partly composted wood materials (might be called West+ or SyncroBoost depending on the company). Personally I would recommend you buy one of these. Westlands MP+JI (with West+) and JAB MP+JI (with Syncroboost) are both great. Levingtons do a version that your GC may stock.
Although high in peat there is enough loam in these to support a good microherd.
3) Reduced Peat composts. E.g. Westlands West+ Advanced. Typically 50% peat, 50% partly composted wood materials.
Some people love this stuff, some people seem to have a nightmare with it. Very light weight, should support a microherd OK, but maybe not as good as a Multipurpose with added JI. Seems to be very variable in quality.
4) Basic Multipurpose. These are 90% peat. Poor for microherd. Generally you'd be better with a Multipurpose with added John Innes.
None of the above are organic as they contain mined peat and chemical salts as a base fertiliser. But that doesn't mean you cannot use organic feeds/method when growing in them (except no. 4 really cos of the lack of microherd). I call this Organicish growing.
For an organic medium you are looking at:
5) Peat Free / Organic options from the GC. May or may not contain some Loam. Typically however there is no peat, and it is generally partly composted wood materials that make up the majority of the compost. Ecologically sound but not as yet as good as Peat based composts for growing plants of any description. May be a good base to make your own organic mix adding in some wormcasts/coco etc.
6) Other organic options - You are looking online for Moorland Gold (organically certificated recovered Peat), or you could look at making your own coir/coco/loam/wormcasts mix.
Whatever you do, when buying compost from a GC try and buy bags that have been stored undercover. If they are all stored outside either use a different GC or don't be shy on ripping apart the pallet to find a dryish bag. Compost that has been stored wet will cause you problems.
I hope that helps.....
Compost wise it looks like you are basically looking at the following:
1. Composts sold as John Innes mixes -
Available in 1 2 or 3, depending on the strength of the (chemical) nutes in them.
These generally contain at least 50% loam (i.e soil, grit, sand, clay) and the rest is mainly peat. They should support a great microherd such as introduced by Plant Magic products but have the disadvantage that they are very heavy, set like concrete and are difficult to rewet if they dry to much, and hold a hell of a lot of water when they are wet so can easily go a little anearobic. Basically they are potentially difficult to work with.
2) Multipurpose with added John Innes.
Not normally sold in 1,2 and 3 formulations AFAIK. These are generally mainly peat about 70% ish, plus some loam (the JI), and maybe some partly composted wood materials (might be called West+ or SyncroBoost depending on the company). Personally I would recommend you buy one of these. Westlands MP+JI (with West+) and JAB MP+JI (with Syncroboost) are both great. Levingtons do a version that your GC may stock.
Although high in peat there is enough loam in these to support a good microherd.
3) Reduced Peat composts. E.g. Westlands West+ Advanced. Typically 50% peat, 50% partly composted wood materials.
Some people love this stuff, some people seem to have a nightmare with it. Very light weight, should support a microherd OK, but maybe not as good as a Multipurpose with added JI. Seems to be very variable in quality.
4) Basic Multipurpose. These are 90% peat. Poor for microherd. Generally you'd be better with a Multipurpose with added John Innes.
None of the above are organic as they contain mined peat and chemical salts as a base fertiliser. But that doesn't mean you cannot use organic feeds/method when growing in them (except no. 4 really cos of the lack of microherd). I call this Organicish growing.
For an organic medium you are looking at:
5) Peat Free / Organic options from the GC. May or may not contain some Loam. Typically however there is no peat, and it is generally partly composted wood materials that make up the majority of the compost. Ecologically sound but not as yet as good as Peat based composts for growing plants of any description. May be a good base to make your own organic mix adding in some wormcasts/coco etc.
6) Other organic options - You are looking online for Moorland Gold (organically certificated recovered Peat), or you could look at making your own coir/coco/loam/wormcasts mix.
Whatever you do, when buying compost from a GC try and buy bags that have been stored undercover. If they are all stored outside either use a different GC or don't be shy on ripping apart the pallet to find a dryish bag. Compost that has been stored wet will cause you problems.
I hope that helps.....
The most important thing to remember as a novice grower is, to keep it as simple as possible until you have a couple of grows under your belt and then start to experiment a little when you have a better understanding of canna's needs.
If these composts are your only choices of compost I would go with levingtons with added JI N*1, but I would mix this 50/50 with seed and cutting compost for cuttings, popping seeds and seedlings. I would stay with the lev with JI 1 for potting on as well, feeding them with BB fish mix during veg will be sound for nice healthy plants (BB fish mix is usually used for bonsai mums and BB grow is used for the vegetative stage but fish mix is sound), I would buy BB bloom for flowering, you have your granules on there way, so now you have all you need to do a complete grow from start to finish in the easiest simplistic terms. Do not over complicate your grow or it will go wrong and could be the makings of a very disappointing harvest.
Hope this helps you in simple terms, it is a lot to remember but keep at it and it will come to those that want to know, knowledge is key to growing decent weed, read through the knowledge base and then read it again, then buy some decent books.
The fully organic composts in garden centres to day is not up to the standard of peat based compost and give very varying results and deficiencies, organic compost are getting better but I would stick to peat based for now because so many deficiencies can go wrong with organic compost and you need to keep it simple until you have a better understanding of growing.
Peace,
GG
If these composts are your only choices of compost I would go with levingtons with added JI N*1, but I would mix this 50/50 with seed and cutting compost for cuttings, popping seeds and seedlings. I would stay with the lev with JI 1 for potting on as well, feeding them with BB fish mix during veg will be sound for nice healthy plants (BB fish mix is usually used for bonsai mums and BB grow is used for the vegetative stage but fish mix is sound), I would buy BB bloom for flowering, you have your granules on there way, so now you have all you need to do a complete grow from start to finish in the easiest simplistic terms. Do not over complicate your grow or it will go wrong and could be the makings of a very disappointing harvest.
Hope this helps you in simple terms, it is a lot to remember but keep at it and it will come to those that want to know, knowledge is key to growing decent weed, read through the knowledge base and then read it again, then buy some decent books.
The fully organic composts in garden centres to day is not up to the standard of peat based compost and give very varying results and deficiencies, organic compost are getting better but I would stick to peat based for now because so many deficiencies can go wrong with organic compost and you need to keep it simple until you have a better understanding of growing.
Peace,
GG
Thanks guys. I'm not a totally novice grower, but after an initial soil grow when I had no idea at all I went NFT and stayed with that for years. No real skill needed, just mix the nutes according to the instructions and keep the ph right. Now after a few years hiatus when my kid was born I'm looking to start up again, and, what with the new-found sense of responsibility and seeing as my mum has an organic veg patch it feels wrong to be going hydro, so I want to give compost another bash.
I'm more concerned with getting something out of it than being strictly organic, so keeping it simple sounds good at first.
BluePixie and Green Goblin, you both suggest that organic composts are not going to be the best option for me at this stage, but this seems to be based on them being peat-free. Does this mean that the Nature's Own range from the Organic Catalogue would be okay? And if so, and if I don't want to be mixing my own, I take it I want the 'seed and cutting compost' and the 'potting and container compost' as opposed to 'Moorland Gold' which if I understand correctly is just peat.
I only have the one GC nearby, so if I can't get any of the recommendations you two gave (in good condition, they are all stored outside unfortunately, and it's not been dry here recently) it might make more sense to piggy back my mum's next order from the Organic Catalogue.
Re Fishmix. I was trying to minimise the number of bottles I needed to buy, and I'd seen some posts recently where people (I think Arnold Layne was one of them) had reported decent results using just fishmix and no bloom. Am I better off sticking to the conventional grow and bloom to start with do you think?
I'm more concerned with getting something out of it than being strictly organic, so keeping it simple sounds good at first.
BluePixie and Green Goblin, you both suggest that organic composts are not going to be the best option for me at this stage, but this seems to be based on them being peat-free. Does this mean that the Nature's Own range from the Organic Catalogue would be okay? And if so, and if I don't want to be mixing my own, I take it I want the 'seed and cutting compost' and the 'potting and container compost' as opposed to 'Moorland Gold' which if I understand correctly is just peat.
I only have the one GC nearby, so if I can't get any of the recommendations you two gave (in good condition, they are all stored outside unfortunately, and it's not been dry here recently) it might make more sense to piggy back my mum's next order from the Organic Catalogue.
Re Fishmix. I was trying to minimise the number of bottles I needed to buy, and I'd seen some posts recently where people (I think Arnold Layne was one of them) had reported decent results using just fishmix and no bloom. Am I better off sticking to the conventional grow and bloom to start with do you think?
QUOTE (OG refugee #24601 @ Sep 6 2009, 08:39 PM) 
. Does this mean that the Nature's Own range from the Organic Catalogue would be okay? And if so, and if I don't want to be mixing my own, I take it I want the 'seed and cutting compost' and the 'potting and container compost' as opposed to 'Moorland Gold' which if I understand correctly is just peat.
I only have the one GC nearby, so if I can't get any of the recommendations you two gave (in good condition, they are all stored outside unfortunately, and it's not been dry here recently) it might make more sense to piggy back my mum's next order from the Organic Catalogue.
Re Fishmix. I was trying to minimise the number of bottles I needed to buy, and I'd seen some posts recently where people (I think Arnold Layne was one of them) had reported decent results using just fishmix and no bloom. Am I better off sticking to the conventional grow and bloom to start with do you think?
I only have the one GC nearby, so if I can't get any of the recommendations you two gave (in good condition, they are all stored outside unfortunately, and it's not been dry here recently) it might make more sense to piggy back my mum's next order from the Organic Catalogue.
Re Fishmix. I was trying to minimise the number of bottles I needed to buy, and I'd seen some posts recently where people (I think Arnold Layne was one of them) had reported decent results using just fishmix and no bloom. Am I better off sticking to the conventional grow and bloom to start with do you think?
Nature's own appears to be the only choice for an Organic compost with peat - the peat being Moorland Gold and therefore organic itself.
I don't know how good it is. I'm sure there are some test grows somewhere on the boards......
Here you go.....
http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?show...e%27s+own\
http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?show...e%27s+own\
There's a couple of other threads accessable via search...
Arnie used to use it, but doesn't anymore, I think....not sure why.
I'm sure if you'll google it you'll find some discussion on mainstream gardening boards.
Again re Fishmix only as a feed, I reckon Arnie may be the man to ask..
TBH,
Until the likes of new horizon and other organic composts are as consistent as the best of the multi purpose composts like levingtons m/p with added ji and westlands m/p with added ji, I would go with seed and cutting compost for obvious reasons and then pot on with the levingtons with added ji1 and supplement with bb grow if needed, but I think they will be fine if potted up every 2 weeks until they are put into 12/12 and then start feeding grow/bloom approximately 1 week after going 12/12.
Peace,
GG
Until the likes of new horizon and other organic composts are as consistent as the best of the multi purpose composts like levingtons m/p with added ji and westlands m/p with added ji, I would go with seed and cutting compost for obvious reasons and then pot on with the levingtons with added ji1 and supplement with bb grow if needed, but I think they will be fine if potted up every 2 weeks until they are put into 12/12 and then start feeding grow/bloom approximately 1 week after going 12/12.
Peace,
GG
Nature's Own is a great mix. A tad prone to clagg, but nowt as bad as JI. It is also high in nutrient content, and some (esp Landrace) strains may find it over hot for their comfort.
It also takes ages for the order to get to you, so long as to make planning a nightmare and that is the sole reason I gave up using it. I may well start using it again in the future, but only when the delivery system is improved.
It also takes ages for the order to get to you, so long as to make planning a nightmare and that is the sole reason I gave up using it. I may well start using it again in the future, but only when the delivery system is improved.
QUOTE (Arnold Layne @ Sep 7 2009, 10:02 AM)
Nature's Own is a great mix. A tad prone to clagg, but nowt as bad as JI. It is also high in nutrient content, and some (esp Landrace) strains may find it over hot for their comfort.
It also takes ages for the order to get to you, so long as to make planning a nightmare and that is the sole reason I gave up using it. I may well start using it again in the future, but only when the delivery system is improved.
It also takes ages for the order to get to you, so long as to make planning a nightmare and that is the sole reason I gave up using it. I may well start using it again in the future, but only when the delivery system is improved.
Don't make the mistake of ordering their tomato compost as a stop gap measure if they don't have any Nature's Own in stock. I made the mistake of ordering some and it was nearly 40% perlite
I'm not so sure where I stand on the beginner aspect that BluePixie talks about. I think once you understand the importance of good ventilation, potting up at the right time, are able to spot the signs of hunger immediately, and keep from fiddling about with everything, you are half way towards a decent run.
I completely ruined my first grow through a combination of things. My compost mix probably wasn't one of them, although I didn't like it and won't use one again.
The best results I've had growth wise during the veg stage, so far, have been from a mix of 20% worm castings and 80% coco, with some rockdust and calcified seaweed added. I fed these with Biobizz and seaweed also.
Coco coir gives great results, is completely organic, fantastic to work with, and I'd love if there was more on these boards to verify that they can be amended to be fed completely organically. The growth from plants in this stuff is hard to match with any compost. Some loam (maybe 10%) can be added to give some weight. Like BP says, it's a source of bacteria and a place in which they can survive, as is the coco. Brewing a very simple beginner tea and watering in with that should enhance the medium with a host of bacteria and microlife, which is vital in the uptake of organic nutes.
The notable difference is that you'd have to start feeding a bit sooner. Maybe start with some seaweed straight away, or a mil per litre of fishmix. But that really isn't hard is it?
You also must be able to spot what the first signs of a nitrogen deficiency looks like. But, again, that is not only easy, but stands you in good stead to get the feel for feeding your plants and it's something you're going to have to do sooner or later anyway.
If you want to go organic, I don't think there's a much better way to do it. But that is just my opinion, based on what I've done so far. It's definitely something you should look into.
I completely ruined my first grow through a combination of things. My compost mix probably wasn't one of them, although I didn't like it and won't use one again.
The best results I've had growth wise during the veg stage, so far, have been from a mix of 20% worm castings and 80% coco, with some rockdust and calcified seaweed added. I fed these with Biobizz and seaweed also.
Coco coir gives great results, is completely organic, fantastic to work with, and I'd love if there was more on these boards to verify that they can be amended to be fed completely organically. The growth from plants in this stuff is hard to match with any compost. Some loam (maybe 10%) can be added to give some weight. Like BP says, it's a source of bacteria and a place in which they can survive, as is the coco. Brewing a very simple beginner tea and watering in with that should enhance the medium with a host of bacteria and microlife, which is vital in the uptake of organic nutes.
The notable difference is that you'd have to start feeding a bit sooner. Maybe start with some seaweed straight away, or a mil per litre of fishmix. But that really isn't hard is it?
You also must be able to spot what the first signs of a nitrogen deficiency looks like. But, again, that is not only easy, but stands you in good stead to get the feel for feeding your plants and it's something you're going to have to do sooner or later anyway.
If you want to go organic, I don't think there's a much better way to do it. But that is just my opinion, based on what I've done so far. It's definitely something you should look into.
Okay, so good news and bad news.
Good news is that my seeds have sprouted
If you saw this thread you'll know that I was starting to think I had thumbs of death. So that's great. But, it means that I need some compost asap which brings me to..
The bad news is I live in the back of beyond and I can't find any of the recommended options in any of the places that stock compost. Asked about seed and cutting compost in one place and was looked at askance and told "It's Autumn".
So, I had to use my initiative
So I've got;
some Levington's JI #1 - only thing that seemed to be aimed at young plants.
some West+ MP - it was that or Lev MP and the Westlands was available in a smaller bag, so if it's wrong I've wasted less cash and lugged less weight around unnecessarily.
some Vermiculite - thought it might help to dilute the compost if there's a risk that the JI and MP together will be too hot, also know from my hydro days that if worst comes to worst I could just feed with formulex in a mix of vermiculite and perlite (see below).
some Perlite - massive sack left over from my hydro days, used to use it for what were basically bonsai mothers, (not that I knew the term at the time). It is old (around six years) but has been kept in a sealed bag and afaik it can't go off as it's totally inert stuff right?
Also found this block of coir left over from a hydro experiment that I abandoned.
Click to view attachment
IIRC the problem I had was keeping the ph stable but that shouldn't be a problem as part of a soil mix should it? It is pretty old though (8 years or so) so it might not be worth bothering with.
So what do you think? I'm thinking a 50:50 perlite vermiculite mix then in turn mixed equally with the JI #1 and the West+ MP giving me 30% MP, 30% JI #1, 15% each vermiculite and perlite. I'm thinking this'll give me a mix that's not too hot, holds water reasonably well but won't be too easy to waterlog.
Am I completely nuts? Hit me with it.
Good news is that my seeds have sprouted
If you saw this thread you'll know that I was starting to think I had thumbs of death. So that's great. But, it means that I need some compost asap which brings me to..The bad news is I live in the back of beyond and I can't find any of the recommended options in any of the places that stock compost. Asked about seed and cutting compost in one place and was looked at askance and told "It's Autumn".
So, I had to use my initiative
So I've got;
some Levington's JI #1 - only thing that seemed to be aimed at young plants.
some West+ MP - it was that or Lev MP and the Westlands was available in a smaller bag, so if it's wrong I've wasted less cash and lugged less weight around unnecessarily.
some Vermiculite - thought it might help to dilute the compost if there's a risk that the JI and MP together will be too hot, also know from my hydro days that if worst comes to worst I could just feed with formulex in a mix of vermiculite and perlite (see below).
some Perlite - massive sack left over from my hydro days, used to use it for what were basically bonsai mothers, (not that I knew the term at the time). It is old (around six years) but has been kept in a sealed bag and afaik it can't go off as it's totally inert stuff right?
Also found this block of coir left over from a hydro experiment that I abandoned.
Click to view attachment
IIRC the problem I had was keeping the ph stable but that shouldn't be a problem as part of a soil mix should it? It is pretty old though (8 years or so) so it might not be worth bothering with.
So what do you think? I'm thinking a 50:50 perlite vermiculite mix then in turn mixed equally with the JI #1 and the West+ MP giving me 30% MP, 30% JI #1, 15% each vermiculite and perlite. I'm thinking this'll give me a mix that's not too hot, holds water reasonably well but won't be too easy to waterlog.
Am I completely nuts? Hit me with it.
QUOTE (Arnold Layne @ Sep 7 2009, 10:02 AM)
Nature's Own is a great mix. A tad prone to clagg, but nowt as bad as JI. It is also high in nutrient content, and some (esp Landrace) strains may find it over hot for their comfort.
It also takes ages for the order to get to you, so long as to make planning a nightmare and that is the sole reason I gave up using it. I may well start using it again in the future, but only when the delivery system is improved.
It also takes ages for the order to get to you, so long as to make planning a nightmare and that is the sole reason I gave up using it. I may well start using it again in the future, but only when the delivery system is improved.
Hiya Arnie,
Tbh, I have not tried N/O because I've only seen it for sale once about 18 months ago, no where seems to sell it around my area atm at least and m/o is to expensive, but now I know you have had good results with it I will try it whenever I can get it, I've been quietly waiting for a decent organic compost even if it is from m/g. I have tried other organic composts in the past but there was no consistency and did not give satisfying results
Does it have any perlite/vimiculite mixed in already or is it nice pure compost?
Cheers,
GG
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.