Following on from this thread, and in particular this post from Bartman:


I thought it'd be interesting to put this to the test.

The background is that I do not find any analgesic value in cannabis. I attend a Pain Management Clinic (the third I've been referred to now) due to chronic pain which is itself down to spinal disease. I don't have much left by way of spinal discs in both cervical and lumbar regions and I have a large degenerating hole in the lumbar zone. The hole was put there to allow a bunch of trapped nerves some freedom (my spine is "stenotic", thickening up and trapping nerves all over the place as it does so). My current analgesic regime is 60 mg of slow-release Morphine twice daily, with 50mg fast release Morphine as and when needed, plus Pregabalin 300mg a day. Both are under review and it has been suggested I step upwards again soon.
Cannabis does potentiate these meds (make them work better), but on its own it does nothing by way of pain relief.

So... is this a caffeine side effect? Is Bartman correct, or is he at least on to something important? It is a fact that Caffeine is known to aggrevate peripheral neuropathy such as I experinece in my limbs - could it be stopping the analgesic power of Cannabis? Or could it be contradicting what the cannabis wants to do? And could quitting Caffeine make cannabis a true analgesic for me?

I switched from my usual coffee to posh de-caff four days ago now. I have not noticed any withdrawals apart from a very minor headache yesterday. Which is kind of surpising, but nice. However, if I allow myself to think about it, I could get a craving.

Pain levels are well up at the moment, and have been for just over a week. So far cannabis is proving no better as an analgesic. But its only one week in.

I'll try and report back each Monday - I plan on running the test for at least two or three months, unless it proves hugely succesful early on.

Comments welcome.

That's really interesting, I'm also somewhat skeptical of the analgesic effects of cannabis as I am with all of them. This may sound sort of strange as I know a great deal of medcal studies as well as a great many med users who will testify to this. My issue is that I have only ever found it a fantastic distraction from the pain I am experiencing at any given time. For example when I did serious ligament damage to my ankle last year(whilst on mushrooms, great trip...) I found the cannabis only made me forget that there was pain when I wasn't moving and did little if anything with the pain, etc.
Maybe its the pints of tea I drink all day that stop it from working who knows?

My suspiscion would be that the majority of medical benefits are gained through eating cannabis and allowing it to pass through the digestive system and get broken down by the liver.
Do you regularly eat canna preparations or do you mainly smoke? if so is there any noticable difference between the two?

As a side note, my mother a die hard skeptic with severe back problems(burst disk, slipped disks, etc) tried accupuncture and was the only thing for years that worked, no more pain killers, no more electronic muscle stimulation. I never expected her to try it but she did and she loved it. I imagine its not quite for everyone though.

Best of luck with your trial, hopefully you've uncovered the missing link between canabis and analgesia


mudkipz

i've read the other thread and find all this very interesting too. it makes sense if you think about it that caffiene (a drug itself) would interfere with cannabis, maybe even the other painkillers too. your condition sounds really painful, the kind that i imagine would require the relief morphine would bring, isnt a severe level of pain dangerous to live with? i.e. if you're in severe pain it affects you stress-wise and could have a knock-on effect on your immune system.
that's not bad just a minor headache giving up coffee, if i ever go long enough without tea i get a cracking sore head which is something i rarely get. good luck with it all and dont suffer too long!

As you know Arnie, I have no analgesic effects from cannabis either....

I was interested in bartman's comment as I drink 5-6 pints of tea every day...

I'm glad you're doing the testing, not me....I love my tea...

BTW, is the posh decaf any good at all? I've never enjoyed decaf tea or coffee, but haven't tried any for years, it may have improved....

Good Luck with it Arnie anyway.

Monk...x

Chronic pain is not the same as severe pain. The latter is like a peak that rises out of the former. Chronic pain is the 24/7 grind of background pain that doesn't budge unless nuked with heavy drugs, ist there all the time, that what "chronic" means; Severe pain is what I have the back up 50mg fast-action tabs for, its the sudden intensifying of the background pain, or extra pains added on that are extremely intense, such as sudden surges of peripheral neuropathic pain in my feet or hands, legs or arms, or worst of all, neck and head.
Don't know about immune system stuff. Mine seems fairly robust, I haven't had a cold in damn near 15 yaers really


Yes, excellent. Water filtered, from Taylors in Harrogate. Pricey, but at least its drinkable. Speaking of which ....

Mudkipz, I smoke mostly; neat spliffs in king sized silver Rizlas or OCB's when I can get 'em. But I also eat, either baking my dope into cookies using up to a couple of grams per cookie if needed, or else heating it in oil and then stirring it into live yoghurt. I pefer smoking, the uptake is quicker, and the doses easier to control. Too much, and cannabis can actually make eveything a lot worse, intensifying the pain and adding psychological chaos into the equation ... not good

Hope it works out for you Arnie... And I hope you find what you're looking for.... A brave man, and fingers are crossed for you....

More fingers crossed for you here sir I'll watch closely if I may, cos I'm a tea junkie too (didn't realise there were so many of us till I saw this thread)

I find that for me some cannabis does have some analgesic properties for some kinds of pain, sometimes Interesting topic mate Good for you trialling this

me, i find erbals analgesic but that's cos i got muscle spasm problems in me back. relaxing in the face of pain (yea, pretty crippling) helps a bit. so does laughing at it. I curse my flesh and take the piss out of my own weakness. as Becket said "If i had the use of my body i'd throw it out the window". ha (sardonic)

Very interesting Arnold.. Good luck with your experiment.

I find cannabis pretty useless as a straight painkiller, apart from for dull aches - headache perhaps, but not for stabbing pains. However, since the main symptom of being in pain is being a miserable sod, and it sorts that out, I think it does kind of help..

Do all pot smokers tend to drink loads of tea or coffee then? I do... That's almost a thread in itself.

E2A I know that caffeine makes paracetamol more effective, but I guess that is unconnected?

Hi Arnold,

I'm sorry to hear that you are in even more pain, I feel for you. I am unfortunately still with you on that front I am also in agreeance that as of yet I have not found a strain that helps my pain (still searching though).

I am curious about this coffee thing. I was only reading the following in a health email I got the other day ( although it is all statistics ) :-



So if it does negatively affect cannabis & its medicinal properties I'll be pretty gutted.

I think I'll pull up a seat for this one if you dont mind Arnie

Don't know about immune system stuff. Mine seems fairly robust, I haven't had a cold in damn near 15 yaers really

i know it's a different kind of pain from your own, but my dads had a few years of joint replacements and was reluctant after ops to take pain relief, the doc told him pain managements important in recovery to promote good wound healing etc. im assuming too much pain would have a negative effect somehow on the immune system and hinder the healing process. say you were to catch a cold in the next 3 months or so and you've not had one for 15 years; then it could prove big changes to what the bodies used to (like drug withdrawels or increased pain) has a negative affect on your system and makes you more susceptible to illness.

it was only a thought.

good luck with your decaf arnie

heres hoping for a positive outcome
and much respect to you for giving it a go.
i know how much you like your *strong*coffee and to give it up for just 2 months must quite a task for you.

Its kicking in now! I've just gulped a scorching cup of decaf and my fingers are all a-twich to go make a propah mug of stuff!
But I won't.

So far, no increase of efficacy in terms of canna-analgesia.

Zeah: I've had a knee replaced (c.18 months ago), it has not gone well at all, and is itself a centre of some excruciating pain if I overdo things. I think it will need replacing again next year, which is a bit of a bind. The surgeon has said he'd like to give me a replacement for the other knee too, plus two hips and a shoulder. I'm not really inclined to let him do it all just yet. But yes, they do insist on pain management as it does aid recovery. I find myself that periods of greater pain do indeed bring one down in body, and I think you are probably right about the immune system.

AKPOG: Damnit! That's a tempter for me to start again with full caffeine intake! Meh! Resisting.

How much caffeine is there in chocolate? My favourite munchy/health bar has a choc dip on it - is that backdoor caffeiene?

Good morning! Its 0600 here, cold and wet.
Today I shall mostly be

I've seen my Dad go through one knee replacement and my Mother in law go through a single hip replacement but Jesus wept; two knees, two hips and a shoulder!

You'll have to change your username to the Bionic Man...

Great experiment by the way, very interesting indeed. Good luck Arnie.

i think chocolate is back-door caffiene, the darker the chocolate the more caffiene but reckon it would only interefere if you had large amounts. so how are you feeling without it anyway? i reckon it would be a long,long day without my cuppa. you say you notice no difference in the pain what about the stone is that any different?
thats not so good your still getting jip with your knee but persevere my dad's ankle was his worst took just over 2 years until the pain went.

That's cool, I only eat tiny ammounts of choc these days. But I'll back off it even more now I think.
I feel, .... like I could murder a huge mug of freshly ground and brewed Columbian Excelsio beans, with a medium-high roast on them to bring out the full flavour without too much bitter undertone.... cafetiere, two unrefined or dark sugars, a splash of milk, a spliff, a comfy chair, feet up, drink deep and long, let that caffeine rush begin .....
No, its not too bad. Really. Bad-ish, so to speak. Well, I aint bitten the dog yet anyway. Or the wife.
Hard to say about the stone because I am smoking a new strain. Its ver' nice, ver' ver' nice indeed Excellent mind distraction from symptoms, but no analgesic hit as of yet.
I'll be keeping my own joints for a long time to come, I hope. But winter's the tester. Surgeon chappie is giving me a year May just gone, then he's gonna decide what he reckons is best for the knee situation.

Anyhoo, I'm off to the Docs this afternoon, be interesting to hear her views on caffeine.

Coffee is made up of about 800 different chemicals. So if you want to know whether coffee is interfering with the analgesic effect of cannabis you may have to give up decaff as well.

Arnold

I have recently had tests for ECG, blood pressure and glucose as i have been feeling really bad, sweating, palpitations and extreme tired ness, what does someone do when tired, have a blast of Coffee.

Well apart from blood pressure higher than optimum she said there is nothing wrong !! after a conversation about diet shes concluded im intolerant to Caffiene!

Years ago after a heavy nights drinking at work i knocked back 6 -7 cups of strong coffee next morning at work and it hospitalised me ! i should have worked it out then but the stuff is poisen now in my book.

This made me think about caffiene and sugar spikes in the blood searched here and found your thread.

Here is some info i found you may find helpfull ? I hope im not way of course with what your thinking here but i just though the info may be helpfull ?

'Caffeine is a drug, not a nutrient. Your body does not require caffeine in any way. What is happening to you is called a "pregnanalone steal." The caffeine from coffee through a process of insulin and glucagon spikes, causes your adrenal glands to fire and produce cortisol. The precursor for cortisol production is pregnenalone. This is made from fat and a combination of low fat diets, caffeine consumption and the lack of sleep all contribute to adrenal fatigue. You need to get at least 5 hours of uninterrupted sleep at night to allow your body to go into an REM sleep mode to allow your adrenal glands to recharge.

From the time your adrenal glands are called into action, as the caffeine makes them do, it takes 29 hours for them to fully recharge.

When the adrenals are exhausted and not recharged, calling on them to produce creates great stress on them and this stress causes the body to reprioritize many functions. The liver, for one, stops the reconjugation of estrogen. When the body is under stress, the adrenals "steal" the pregnenalone and use it up, not allowing the steroid hormones to be made in the liver, due to that reprioritization. The steroid hormones are sex hormones and that is why the libido goes away when a person is stressed.

Your cravings for lots of sweets is your body telling you that you are very FAT deficient. Most likely, you are deficient in minerals as well and especially magnesium if you have a chocolate craving.

Hormones are very powerful and a very tiny amount and cause a huge reaction in the body. I would seek out a good Certified Nutritional Therapist that can help you by testing you to find specific nutritional deficiencies and take all the guess work out of the process. They can advise you on supplements and food choices that will help you greatly.

good luck to you
Source(s):
CNT, B.A. biology & chemistry
advanced nutritional research'

you might wanna give up chocolate too as there,s sumin in chocolate that binds to your thc receptors , google it to see the science

I have given this a couple of weeks, then started drinking real coffeee before mid-day only.
TBH, I observed no difference without coffee.
I'm sticking with decaf for now, with real coffee before 12:00 noon. Just because I like it.

I don't crave chocolate, and am certainly not fat defficient!! Sorry man, but I got at least another 2 stone of lard to lose here. And I doubt I'm down in minerals too, as I eat raw greens and stuff by the boatload every day.

I suspect I'm better off with my coffee, as it does provide me some enjoyment.

So I guess this experiment failed due to my lack of enthusiasm really. I like coffee. I like caffeine. I really don't think it blocks some analgesic element of dope, and I don't think its the great big evil some scientists would like us to believe it is.

Sorry to invade on yer topic Arnie..
Just read what Coopers put down, am I right in assuming that hes saying caffeinne affects the libido in massive amounts? Or am I reading this wrong cos its too early?

Sorry to hear that you gained no benefit from your experiment Arnie, but at least you gave it a go?

The benefits of coffee suffer from severe under reporting by the media. There is definitely research indicating that coffee can be harmful to your health and coffee even contains several rodent carcinogens but the benefits outweigh the risks. Wikipedia provides a useful summary. I think the one thing you can be sure of is that the chance of you developing complications increases with the more coffee you drink. As usual moderation is the key.

It's also worth mentioning that some people are quite sensitive to caffeine or coffee.