Hello Peeps,

We grow a lot of fruit and veg and I wondered if anyone has good or bad experiances of using Nematodes for slug control or more importantly Lacewing Larvae for aphid control, we grow on a large open plot that is 100% organic, just horse shit in the winter and hard work in the summer.

We don't want to start spraying "stuff" around but we do seem to be losing crops and yeald from pests. All the aphids plus sawfly and the other little buggers. Oh and the blight last 2 years and the Onion bottom rot, but we keep on going, got a good feeling about this year.

Has anyone used these and could give any advice.

I had the Marshalls seed Co. flyer today they have Lacewing Larvae for 10 quid a go to do 20 square M,

Any comments please,

Jom

Nematodes worked well for me in knocking back a whitefly infestation for an indoor garden. I had to help it a bit with some safer soap spraying.

In your outdoor situation I would think that perhaps nematodes would be best in conjunction with other natural predators, if you want to stay away from sprays. Birds? Attract the ones that would eat the wee buggers. Is there any other predator you could use?

Good Luck!

I can offer you one bit of advice for a long term solution ........ you need to get the beneficial nematode count up in your soil if you can use a fish mix feed for a while in conjunction with lots of worm cast based tea or worm casts ....

using the fish base is a good move there is chiten in the mix from shell fish waste which is very good for increasing your predatory nematode soil count ...add that to worm cast tea and plenty of worm casts will see a good improvement over time



good luck


riptd

2nd!

you could dare i say it make your own to.... as long as you keep the brew very aerated with oxygen , a good air pump about 10 pound of fish bone , heads and crushed shell fish waste ..it wont smell if you plan it right ...... you sound like you might give it a go ... if you do let me know and I will walk through it with you ..... easy really .... large dust bin ... air pump .... water .... a pair of tights fish waste ... and worm casts


and hey presto .............. home brew fish mix ...............

good luck


riptd

The one thing that struck me as I read your post was that you garden on a large open plot?

To be able to attract the most beneficial/helpful insects/birds into your garden they will need a variety of nesting habitats...have you any trees,shrubs,buildings around your plot?
The reason I ask is because a few years ago in another garden I disturbed a nest/colony of Lace Wings that were over wintering under the felt on an old shed that I was demolishing and in this garden now I have put rolled up newspapers etc in the conifers as nesting sites for insects.
I've had nesting Blackbirds in this garden now for several years along with Sparrows and Blue Tits which have kept things under control a bit but my biggest mistake was taking a pond out and replacing it with a seating area....lost the frogs that kept the slugs under control .

Sorry I can't help with the nematodes etc..I've never used them..but it may be worth a look at how to attract natural allies?

Good Luck

Thanks for the input.

Looks like I'm going to be looking for bits of fish then.

The plot is very open, it's an acre of greenbelt we have the use of, it has a natural base of birds and other natural stuff, we regulary find Slow worms and last week found a toad about an inch long in the place his dad (a big bugger) would normally be, they tend to stay in the same areas.I think.

We leave half the field to nature and mow a few paths over the year a few wild plants and lupins seem to do well , (brambles love it) the other half is for our veg and fruit trees and a couple of lawns for the kids and cousins to play on..

We have traditional style "in a row" beds so I think this encourages pests once they have found our plants.

We only visit one or twice a week so things can get out of hand, it's not a big problem ATM, just hope the local Robin has got a gut full.

Happy growing peeps,

JOM

Sounds lovely JOM .

I must admit that I've been using my leftover Fishmix for feeding my allotment but to be honest I don't really mind a few pests nicking my stuff it all balances out in the end .

.... large dust bin ... air pump .... water .... a pair of tights fish waste ... and worm casts


Sounds like a good night in thanks riptd

JOM

Interesting idea RTD but I thought Chitin actually decreased the nematode count because adding Chitin boosted the populations of Chitin consuming micro organisms that then start on the nematode eggs (the shells are made of Chitin) after they've exhausted all the Chitin from the fish mix or shrimp meal paste. Not 100% definite of this so would love to know for sure.

hi felix

yes your correct in your understanding of chitin...(well almost) it does decrease the nematode count ..but its the type of nematodes (bad) count thats reduced .. it will actually reduce them significantly but will increase the beneficial count in the long term ...(called free living nematodes ) as these are not usually present when the bad guys are in charge ..... due to many underlying conditions ..but primarily due to lack of balance in your soil ... really that means no organic matter for the soil to feed on...nature has a great way of dealing with things if we would only let her do her thing .....10% bad guys 10% good guys ... the other 80% sit on the fence ... when the balance is tipped in favour of ether one they will take over .... so if your soil is not well the bad guys take over ....but by feeding your soil with organic matter the balance is restored and the good guys will take over ..... its all about balance ....


it all so depends on how the chiten is extracted ... if its done through a chemical process its a nasty chiten that is released ,,its also a very nasty chemical process and leaves a trial of nasty chemical by products and is totally unsustainable......

but if you extract the chitin through a natural process ..ie like in a composting process..... it becomes a form that is useful in many more applications ... but with its use in compost (fish waste, shell fish waste but even better with mussel waste) as well , the chitin thats available helps to balance the over all effect ..with nature its never just one thing you have to look at its the whole picture .. so add that to the benefits of fish waste derived compost (or other type fish mixes ) and the benefits of fish waste based protein nitrogen thats in its chelateable form ( non soluble so no eutriphocation of the water ways ) but is still available for the plants to take when they want ..but not when we want them to ...... you have a very good over all product ...........

its other application that folks where interested in ( and is still ongoing process validation ) was for the reduction of wire worms in so much as increasing the beneficial parasitic nematode to attack the wire worm grub.( a major problem for potatoes) ... golf clubs are spending a lot on of money on the same type of thing to reduce there problems with nematodes in greens ( green lipped mussels have the best chitin for this )


I was involved in a large project that was testing its use ,in the validation and process control ... ie .. I designed , built and ran the in vessel system that was used for the purpose of the validation ... and handed the control over as a turn key operation



the process could have had a patent ... but the intellectual property rights we let go so as to facilitate the open transfer of the technology to third world usage for free ..... hence I am not a millionaire ... but my over riding priority at the time was the transfer of so called high technology.. in to a low cost back end technology for use in areas of the world where it would benefit folks most ....(for free)

I hope this explains my love of fish waste and the benefits of its use ...............please excuse my spelling and crammer but I am dyslexic .. not that it worry s ...but some might wonder why its so bad at times... and to be honest I never did give a shit about it any way

I have also lots of published cited papers... and if you would like to see them .... your welcome ..but I would have to give them in a format that wont give my self or any one else that I worked with away or as to who they are .... so they may not make al much sense with a lot of the content removed ..... I hope you understand this.

the above is a simplistic view I know ... but I wanted in replying to you ... also to make it understood to others who don't have your obvious knowledge or mine
in a format thats easy to understand our passion for what we do .... and mine was always much much more than just a passion


good luck ...

ripthefishwastelover


ps when I have time to dig it out .. there are many more benefits of chitin use directly on the plant growth that are well worth using and exploring ...

but that another days work ........ ps once again my spelling get worse after typing for a while so soz..........

that depends on your point of view jom.............................


let me know if you want a hand to set it up ....... I promise you this .... you wont regret it .... and your soil and plants will love mr an ma jom even more

Organic soil amendments have long been considered beneficial in managing plant-parasitic nematodes. removed (1937) observed that adding organic matter to soil increased the activity of nematode-trapping fungi. The beneficial effect of organic matter incorporation is generally considered to be due to direct or indirect stimulation of predators and parasites of plant-parasitic nematodes. The incorporation of organic matter may serve to increase the nematode community diversity. This increased diversity can prevent the domination of the nematode community by a single species, encourage the activity of nematode antagonists, and increase linkages within the soil food web. Additional research is required in this area.

The addition of organic matter may provide an energy source for facultative nematode parasites, such as some fungi. Many of the successful experimental additions of nematode-parasitic fungi to soil have included the addition of organic matter to the soil along with the fungus. The enhancement of nematode-trapping fungi by organic matter often lasts for only short periods of time, a few weeks for example, and does not typically exert a strong effect on nematode population densities (removed 1987).

Amending soil with chitin has in some cases been shown to reduce populations of Meloidogyne javanica and other species of plant-parasitic nematodes (removed , 1986, 1987). Chitin amendments seem to suppress nematode populations through the release of nematicidal ammonia during decomposition, and by stimulation of chitinolytic organisms such as bacteria and actinomycetes that attack nematode egg shells (removed et al., 1986; removed et al., 1987, 1988). Because ammonia is released by chitin amendments, they can be phytotoxic when added to the soil at high concentrations. However, the addition of hemicellulosic waste together with the chitin may reduce the phytotoxicity (removed et al., 1985). Typical chitin application rates for successful nematode control are three to four tons per acre (Removed , personal communication;removed , 1986, 1987, 1988), making the cost of chitin application prohibitive for many crops but if the chitin is extracted though the composting process its in a form that is far less phytotoxic to plants and will even have an over all beneficial effect on plants growth patterns and soil diversity (removed 1992......and not to mention the over all cost benefits factor in production of chitin(removed 1991/2/5)

Cover crops grown to sustain soil fertility will influence other aspects of the cropping system including, nematode densities, weeds, pest insects, beneficial insects, and diseases. These side-effects may either inhibit or enhance the associated cash crops. Therefore, cover crops should be selected with the whole cropping system in mind. Cover cropping specifically for suppression of nematodes is receiving increased attention (removed et al., 1986; removed , 1987; removed et al., 1988a). Cover crops can affect plant-parasitic nematodes by: 1) acting as non-hosts and preventing nematode reproduction; 2) producing root exudates that stimulate nematode activity in the absence of a host resulting in increased nematode mortality; 3) producing root exudates that are nematicidal; or, 4) producing compounds in the foliage that, when incorporated into soil, are nematicidal.

once again I have removed a few links in a few of these posts ... my ex wife is a professor of biology and I will at all times protect her and her anonymity and those of others and there academic papers and works ..I hope you understand this

When useing mixed Organic Treatmet the organic microbial rich materials which contain proper nutritional ingredients created to feed the microbes extracted from the biological potency of specialized organic worm castings. This technology has been diligently researched, both in academic and independent field studies. When adding organic materials to any growing environment several matters must be observed. There must be a balance between the microorganisms in the solution when first applied. Through symbiotic relations with the plant, the microbes will adjust themselves accordingly. A prey-predator affect will take place, and with the help of the plant, microbes will balance and complement the plants needs. This relationship is why 30,000 or greater beneficial microbes are imperative; certain types of plants like a variety of bacteria that produce certain types of N and other nutritional elements. A variety of fungi and mycorrhizal are needed to provide soluble sources of nutrients and root protection. Protozoa and beneficial nematodes are needed for a conventional recycling process of fungi and bacteria. The most important elements in the dynamics of plant growth are chitin and cellulose degraders. These foot soldiers are the magic for optimal health and vigorous growth. mixed Organic Treatments are essential for the biological feeding concepts to take place and can become visible when varied Organic Treatments have been applied. This is how it works.

Beneficial Aerobic Bacteria:

Beneficial bacteria are the keepers of nutrients. They consume and carry nutrients such as N, Ca, Fe, K, S and P in their biomass and release it for plant food when competitors such as fungi, protozoa or chitin and cellulose degraders consume them.
Bacteria consume toxic materials present in the environment or released by anaerobic organisms. The glue which they use to attach themselves to root structures, leaf surfaces, and in the soil creates aggregates, and passageways for air and water. This helps to maintain an aerobic environment keeping anaerobic or non-beneficial competitors out.
Bacterial component structure is comprised of (5:1) C: N ratio. This is the most nitrogen concentrated organism in the world. Bacteria play a very important roll in the nitrifying and absorption of Nitrogen and its forms of ammonium, Nitrites, and nitrates. Plants prefer one form of N over the other for optimal health. A diversity of different bacteria will help to maintain a symbiotic relationship with the plant observing its needs for optimal growth.

Beneficial Aerobic Fungi:

Like bacteria, fungi carry nutrients in their biomass. They are a major carrier of Calcium (Ca). Calcium in a soluble form is very important for plant root structure and plant cell structure. Fungi must be eaten to release a chelated and soluble form of Ca. They are consumed by nematodes, chitin and cellulose degraders.
Fungi are also a rich source of Carbon (20:1); by adding a rich source of Carbon like fungi, growing environments retain sustenance for long term health and growth.
Fungi consume toxins and decompose carbon compounds such as humic acid.
Mycorrhizal Fungi: These types of fungi are imperative for nutrient transfer with the plant. Mycorrhizal fungi exchange nutrients from organic matter and carbon sources within the plant root system in exchange for sugars. This exchange creates fungal chains and improved root structure, as well as prevention of root occupation by pathogenic fungi.



Protozoa and beneficial Nematodes:

Protozoa and beneficial nematodes are consumers of bacteria and fungi. Through their ingestion process they release the nutrients contained in the biomass of the bacteria or fungi. This nutrient is released in a soluble form available for the plant. Beneficial nematodes are important part of disease control by consuming other unbeneficial nematodes that feed on plant roots. Protozoa include flagellates, amoebae, and ciliates; all very important in the balance of biology.

Chitin and cellulose degraders:
useing mixed organic treatments the feeding cycle begins with chitin degrading and cellulose degrading microbes. Protozoa and beneficial nematodes consume only certain types of bacteria and fungi. All bacteria and fungi have a chitin base or a cellulose base structure. Chitinase and cellulase producing microbes consume any type of chitin based or cellulose based microorganism. This implies a non discriminate recycling process of any type of bacteria or fungi; this includes both pathogenic and beneficial microorganisms.
The varied organic treatments materials specialize in the creation, multiplication and the concentration of chitin and cellulose degraders with 200,000,000 chitin degraders (per dry weight gram) and 400,000,000 cellulose degrader (per dry weight gram).
Chitin and cellulose degraders consume bacteria and fungi at a very rapid pace. This rapidity of nutrient recycling is a direct reflection of the plants success. When this process is sped up, the nutrient reaching the plant is increased therefore the plant can support faster, more robust growth. Chitinase and cellulase producing organisms occupy attachment sites on roots, leaf surfaces, and in the soil creating competition for undesired and unbeneficial organisms.

Beneficial Nematodes -

Organic Insect Control

Beneficial nematodes are underground pest hunters that control over 250 different species of insects that spend some part of their lives underground. They are a very efficient organic insect control method and kill most insects before they become adults. This includes lots of common lawn and garden pests
Beneficial Nematodes -

Just what are they?

The beneficial nematode is a small microsopic worm that lives below the soil. a juvenile nematode called a scarp. It is generally clear or white in color and has no segments like earthworms do. There are over 20,000 different kinds of nematodes that live in the soil and a small handful of soil will generally contain thousands of them. Nematodes are considered parasites and can affect a number of different plants and animals. Some species of nematodes are considered pests, but these are not the same species of beneficial nematodes used to control insects.

We recommend that a combination of beneficial nematodes be applied for organic insect control (Steinernema and Heterorhabditis), these are actually two different strains of beneficial nematodes which are parasites to other insects and spend their lives hunting and killing them. These nematodes will not control or kill other types of nematodes already in the soil. there are different types of nematode that will pray on plant specific (bad) nematodes



How effective are nematodes as natural predators?

When a beneficial nematode attacks an insect larvae or grub it enters the body of its host. Generally within 48 hours that host insect will either die, be physically altered or unable to produce. The Steinernema and Heterorhabditis strains of nematode carry a bacteria that generally kills its host insect in quick fashion. The beneficial nematode then moves onto another host.


What sort of conditions does it require?

Beneficial nematodes live in almost any soil, but they prefer a balanced organic rich soil ....

Total respect Rip,

I was going to read through you very elequant reply in one go, but had a few beers watching the Lions so the brain won't work as it should, thanks for your informed input, I'll get back when I've read it all, still a bit worried about the tights and water pump though.....

Thanks mate

JOM

no sweat mate .... if I was still drinking I would be in your position now after the lions game to.....but I'm not for various reason's but it wont stop me hankering after the afternoon rugby and a few pints..... and being a staunch Munster and ulster fan (born in Donegal kids born in cork) I loves me rugby to


good luck


riptd

Thanks for an incredibly detailed explanation RTD that's marvellous

thank you felix .... its my pleasure and if the truth be known it go's way beyond a passion of mine ..... for the last 5 years I have been stuck in limbo in my life for one reason or another and finding this site has given me back my passion for what I love most in life .... and to enjoy again what I had lost ...

thank you for asking questions that make me want to do it again ...........


it was and is my pleasure again to help out in any way I can ..........

Well I for one am certainly glad you've got your enthusiasm fired up again as you certainly seem to know your stuff and we need folk like that