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Randalizer
'allo folks,

So I've been pondering the whole MH/HPs differing effects on canna growth. I've introduced a MH lamp into my HPS flowering room and more recently switched over from fluro tubes to MH in my veg tent.

I've seen a lot of claims, here at UK420, that the reason for plants being smaller/stockier under MH (when compared to HPS) is that the MH lamps are less efficient, the plant is getting less lumens. However from my own observations and listening to others on the effect MH illumination has on their plants, I feel that this may not be the only contributing factor. And may even not be the reason at all, for the altered growth characteristics.

I think it likely that the MH radiation causes a reaction in the plant to make it grow stockier. This seems to happen with a lot of folks here (please don't ask for citations! fear.gif ). It certainly does in my Jedi. With similar wattage MH (switched over from linear fluro), the Jedi is now producing the squat, thickly branched growth I have been seeking for so long. In addition I think HPS illumination makes plants stretch.
Btw I can only get camera phone quality pictures only atm. sadwalk.gif

Granted this may be strain specific. In fact I would be a bit surprised if it wasn't. lol.gif. It would be nice to compare notes and find out what strains do well under what lights. Or has this been done in the strain talk forums? unsure.gif

I've also been inspired by the diehard LED research crowd here. thumbsup.gif They seem attuned to the idea that differing wavelengths of light may produce very specific responses in canna. I've not had any real time to devote to this research so I would be thrilled to hear from other folks on this! yahoo.gif

cheers.gif
KurnelKaos
Hey Randalizer,

I was about to ask what's the recomended lamp type for Week 1+ of flowering. I have an a pair MH and HPS blubs so far I have only used a MH.

Tried searching the fourm, was getting the impression that HPS should be used for flowering, so I would love to know what one of the two I shoudl be using.

KK
Randalizer
According to the experts (that I trust wink1.gif ) here HPS is good for stretch and MH for stocky growth and increased psyche-activity. I use HPS at the start of flower to get my girls to grow a bit, then switch over to MH for the last 3 weeks of a 9 week flower period.

I've observed the stretch from HPS and also the squat quality from MH. The psyche-active effects I've seen a good research paper write up on. I'll be back with a Jedi smoke report soon, taking into account the MH on my girls. thumbsup.gif
trebor
i grow in tents rands and use mh for the 1st couple of weeks then hps to finish off(helps me loads when running a new strain from seeds, which seem to stretch more than cuts i feel), interesting to hear you do it the other way round, do you have no height restriction or do you flower em short?

be interesting to see the smoke report on the mh, see if its worth using em more for quality of stone etc.
Randalizer
QUOTE (trebor @ May 8 2009, 07:41 PM) *
, do you have no height restriction



None in my flower room, and none to speak of in my veg tent. I also use linear rails on all my HIDs. Check my diaries for pictures and more info.
BioBuzz
Very interesting.....I would have guessed that the more Watts at the end would have given a heavier bloom, is this method just for quality of smoke?
Randalizer
The HPS/MH ratio for flowering (60/40) was derived at by OT1 after some research done by him. I can't find the topic (would anyone here like to help me on this please?). In the topic he said he felt that this was the best compromise between potency and yield.

OT1s advice has helped my garden so very much and he is very kind and generous (unless he is grumpy lol.gif ). Of all the folks I have read here at UK420 over the past year, I trust him the most. yes.gif notworthy.gif

BUT I feel more research would be nice. yes.gif
BioBuzz
I might well have to use this method cause ill be using a 600w hps for flowering starting this weekend.
Reckon I will have problems with the stretch and probably would be able to leave the 400w mh closer to them if things are tight, Ill see how things go... How long many weeks can i expect them to stretch for?
Randalizer
QUOTE (BioBuzz @ May 8 2009, 08:02 PM) *
How long many weeks can i expect them to stretch for?


rolleyes.gif

How about if we keep the signal to noise ratio down if we could please? I'm no expert on stretch and there are loads of topics here on that if you search for them. This topic is about wavelengths of light and their effect on canna growth.

Please don't take this personally. I mention it here only in an attempt to keep this topic on track.
BioBuzz
I took that one to heart, Im off now to cry myself to sleep cry.gif

Yea that was plain laziness rofl.gif rofl.gif
Randalizer
rofl.gif rofl.gif rofl.gif

thumbsup.gif cheers.gif
ICTHC
As I posted in my first post, I've never grown canna. However, I've done a fair bit of research on it. The sun produces equal amounts of each wavelength of light between certain parameters. HPS bulbs tend to produce more red light than MH bulbs and as a result you can get stretchier plants, larger internodal distances and generally weaker branches which is not what you want to hold your buds! The HPS are also of more benefit to flowering plants because more of the red spectrum is used. MH bulbs produce more of the blue wavelength that is lacking in the HPS and as a result plants develop thicker, stronger stems and don't tend to stretch so much. I can't comment on LEDs, fluorencents or dual spectrum HPSs but I would guess that the dual spectrum HPS bulb is produced in such a way that the missing blue wavelength has been compensated for and that they produce a healthy balance between the two. I know nothing about the radiation they might produce or wavelengths outside the visible spectrum so can't really comment!

Alex
Randalizer
I wonder if canna wants to see differing wavelengths at differing times. Or by emphasing certain wavelengths at certain times, we get more of what we are looking for.

In any case, a study on UVB radiation and THC production:

source

QUOTE
Resin glands, and the uv light connection

here's an article i found. A few of us have talked about it on a few threads. An elaboration on the phytochemical process that makes marijuana THC
The resin exuded by the glandular trichome forms a sphere that encases the head cells.

When the resin spheres are separated from the dried plant material by electrostatic attraction and placed on a microscope slide illuminated with a 100W incandescent bulb, they appear very dark when observed through a 300X microscope. Since orange, red, and infrared are the component wavelengths of incandescent light, and since the absorption of light makes an object dark or opaque to the frequency of the incoming wave, one can conclude that these wavelengths are probably not directly involved in energizing the cannabinoid pathway.

However, the resin sphere is transparent to ultraviolet radiation.

The author found through trial and error that only one glandular
trichome exhibits the phytochemical process that will produce the amount of THC associated with pain relief, appetite stimulation and anti-nausea; euphoria and hallucinations are side-effects, however. This trichome is triggered into growth by either of the two ways that the floral bract is turned into fruit.

Of all the ways that optics are involved in the phytochemical production of THC, the most interesting has to be how the head cells and cannabinoid molecules are tremendously magnified by the resin sphere. These and other facts are curiously absent from the literature. The footnotes update the literature to include electrostatic separation of the resin sphere from the dried plant material and marijuana parthenocarpy.


(1) "For all spheres, a ray drawn perpendicular to the sphere's surface will intersect the center of the sphere, no matter what spot on the surface is picked, and the magnifying power(a) of a glass sphere is greater the smaller its size. A sphere of glass can also bring light that is heading to a focus behind it to a point within it, with freedom from two aberrations, spherial aberration and coma, but not from chromatic aberration. Chromatic aberration results when different wavelengths are focused on different planes and is the most difficult of the aberrations to correct. The human eye lens also exhibits chromatic aberration, but a yellow pigment( called the macula lutea in the fovea, an area at the rear of the eyeball, corrects this problem by the way it absorbs blue light."

(a)"The formula to calculate the magnifying power of a sphere is l=333/d, where l is the magnifying power and d is the diameter of the sphere expressed in mm."

(b)Interestingly, the resin exuded by drug-type flowering female marijuana plants has a yellow tint. Could this pigment work to correct chromatic aberration in the resin sphere like the macula lutea does in the fovea for the eyeball?

(2) Quoting from the Mahlberg and Kim study of hemp(a) "THC accumulated in abundance in the secretory cavity where it was associated with the following: cell walls, surface feature of secretory vesicles, fibrillar material released from disc cell wall, and cuticle. It was not associated with the content of the secretory vesicles."

The resin spheres contain the THC. It is not contained in the leaf or floral bract. After the resin spheres are dissolved in solvent or dislodged by electrostatic attraction, and a microscopic examination of the leaf or floral bract has revealed that only the glandular trichomes' stalks remain, no effect will be felt after smoking the dried plant material from which the resin spheres have been removed.

(3) The electrostatic collection of the resin spheres from dried marijuana plants with plenty of ripe seeds has been for hundreds of years the method indigenous people of North Africa and Lebanon have used to make hashish. Obtain a round metal can 8" or so in diameter x 3" or so in depth (the kind that cookies come in) with a smooth lid. Obtain 2 ounces of dried marijuana with plenty of ripe seeds in the tops. To remove the seeds and stems, sift the marijuana tops through a 10-hole-to-the-inch wire kitchen strainer into the can. Close the can with the lid and vigorously shake the closed can three or four times. This gives the resin spheres an excess negative charge. Let the can sit for a moment and then remove the lid. Opposites attract. The negative-charged resin spheres have been attracted to the metal surface of the can and lid which has a positive charge. Take a matchbook cover or credit card and draw the edge across the surface of the lid. Note the collected powder. Observed under 300X magnification, the collected powder from this "shake" is composed of resin spheres with an occasional non-glandular trichome. As the marijuana is shaken again and again, and more of the yellow resin spheres are removed from the plant material, the collected powder gradually becomes green-colored as the number of non-glandular trichomes increases in the collected powder. The greener the powder, the less the effect.

(4) "Cannabinoids represent a dimer consisting of a terpene and a phenol component. Cannabigerol (CBG) is the first component of the pathway. It undergoes chemical change to form either cannabichromene (CBC), or cannabidiol (CBD). Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is derived from CBD."

(5) "Pate (1983) indicated that in areas of high ultraviolet radiation exposure, the UVB (280-320 nm) absorption properties of THC may have conferred an evolutionary advantage to Cannabis capable of greater production of this compound from biogenetic precursor CBD. The extent to which this production is also influenced by environmental UVB has also been experimentally determined by Lydon et al. (1987)."

The writer's own experience allow for a more specific conclusion: If the UVB photon is missing from the light stream(a), or the intensity as expressed in µW/cm2 falls below a certain level(, the phytochemical process will not be completely energized with only UVA photons which are more penetrating but less energetic, and the harvested resin spheres will have mostly precursor compounds and not fully realized THC©.

(a)Examples of an environment where the UVB photon would be missing from the light stream include all indoor cultivation illuminated by HID bulbs and in glass or corrugated fiberglass covered greenhouses.

("The maximum UVB irradiance near the equator (solar elevation angle less than 25 deg.) under clear, sunny skies is about 250 µW/cm2. It was observed that the daily solar UVB in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia (N24.4Lat.) decreased from September to December by about 40% (Hannan et al. 1984). The further a person is from the tropics, the less UVB radiation there is: the average annual exposure of a person living in Hawaii is approximately four times that of someone living in northern Europe." Below are some UVB readings taken in Hoyleton, Illinois, on a clear sunny day in June by David Krughoff as reported in Reptile Lighting 2000.

7am: 12 microwatts/cm2
8am: 74 microwatts/cm2
9am: 142 microwatts/cm2
10am: 192 microwatts/cm2
11am: 233 microwatts/cm2
12pm: 256 microwatts/cm2
1pm: 269 microwatts/cm2
2pm: 262 microwatts/cm2
3pm: 239 microwatts/cm2
4pm: 187 microwatts/cm2
5pm: 131 microwatts/cm2
6pm: 61 microwatts/cm2

©Cannabinoid pathway: Anywhere in this pathway UVB does a better job than UVA in energizing a phytochemical reaction that will produce more fully realized THC because "all cannabinolic compounds show an absorption maximum between 270 and 280 nm in the ultraviolet region."

(6) Capitate-stalked glandular trichome.

(7) #1: The ovum has been fertilized and there is a seed developing: In the areas of the Northern Hemisphere where indigenous people have grown heterozygous drug-type marijuana for hundreds of years, pollination is used to trigger the growth of the capitate-stalked glandular trichome on the floral bract and concomitant leaves of the flowering females before the autumnal equinox(a) so the majority of seeds will be ripe( before November.

(7) #2: The floral bract has become parthenocarpic: Parthenocarpic fruits develop without fertilization and have no seeds. Except for transmutation and turning lead into gold, there has been more nonsense written about seedless marijuana than on any other subject. In marijuana parthenocarpy, the floral bract (the fruit) enlarges in size as though there were a seed growing inside, and the capitate-stalked glandular trichome is triggered into growth on the floral bract and concomitant leaves. "Most popular supermarket tomatoes are parthenocarpic which was induced artificially by the application of dilute hormone sprays (such as auxins) to the flowers." In a trial, marijuana parthenocarpy was not induced by the application of the spray used on tomatoes. Only the photoperiod© will trigger parthenocarpy in flowering female marijuana plants. Marijuana parthenocarpy occurring before the autumnal equinox is considered by the author to be "long-day" and marijuana parthenocarpy occurring after the autumnal equinox to be "short-day".

The longest photoperiod that will trigger parthenocarpy in unfertilized flowering homozygous(d) Indica female marijuana plants is 13:00 hours, give or take 15 minutes. This effect can be obtained in the month of August at N35Lat, and because the capitate-stalked glandular trichomes received plenty of UVB during this month at this latitude, the harvested resin spheres had fully realized THC. Rating: euphoria and hallucinations, major appetite boost and pain relief, deep dreamless sleep. These plants seldom grow taller than four feet but potency makes up for the reduced harvest.

The gene pool is heterozygous if a flowering female marijuana plant is not parthenocarpic by the end of the first week in September in the Northern Hemisphere. If this is the case, pollination is used instead of parthenocarpy to trigger the growth of the capitate-stalked glandular trichome before the autumnal equinox to obtain as much fully realized THC as possible in the harvested resin spheres by the time the majority of the seeds are ripe.

The longest photoperiod that will trigger parthenocarpy in unfertilized flowering heterozygous female marijuana plants is 11:00 hours, give or take 15 minutes: This effect can be obtained in the month of November at N35Lat. Because of the low intensity of UVB radiation at this latitude at sea level during November, the harvested resin spheres evidenced only slightly more THC than precursor compounds. Rating: mild to medium euphoria, appetite boost and pain relief, good snooze.

Thai marijuana falls into this 11:00 hour category, and its parthenocarpy is characterized by an inflorescence in which many floral bracts are attached to an elongated meristem. It is these elongated meristems that are harvested to become a THAI STICK. On the other side of the world, Mexican marijuana grown around the same latitudes (Michoacan, Guerrero, Oaxaca) also falls into this short-day parthenocarpic category and the unfertilized marijuana will become "sensimilla" in the 11:00 hour photoperiod which begins in mid-December in that region. The winter sunshine in those latitudes has enough UVB intensity to produce fully realized THC--unlike the winter sunshine at N35Lat.

All unfertilized flowering female marijuana plants will become parthenocarpic in a 9:00 hour photoperiod (15:00 hour dark period): This can be obtained in the month of December at N35Lat. At this latitude in this month there is not even enough UVB in sunlight for precursor vitamin D3 to develop in human skin. The phytochemical process will not produce fully realized THC when UVB falls below a certain level of intensity expressed in µW/cm2. Rating: no effect.

(a)In the Northern Hemisphere above the Tropic of Cancer, the key to all marijuana potency is this: The more days of sunlight the capitate-stalked glandular trichomes' resin spheres accumulate before the autumnal equinox the more fully realized THC.

(b)It is recognized in the indigenous world that drug-type marijuana with a majority of ripe seeds will produce more euphoria, hallucinations, appetite stimulation, pain relief, and sleep aid than with a majority of unripe seeds.

©The photoperiodic response is controlled by phytochrome. "Phytochrome is a blue pigment in the leaves and seeds of plants and is found in 2 forms. One form is a blue form(Pfr), which absorbs red light, and the other is a blue-green form(Pr) that absorbs far-red light. Solar energy has 10X more red (660nm) than far-red (730nm) light causing the accumulation of Pfr." The first and last hour of a day's sunlight is mostly red light because of the scattering effect on blue light. "So at the onset of the dark period much of the phytochrome is in the Pfr form. However, Pfr is unstable and returns to phytochrome Pr in the dark." The red light in sunrise returns the Pr to the Pfr form. "Phytochrome Pfr is the active form and controls flowering and germination. It inhibits flowering of short-day plants (the long night period is required for the conversion of Pfr to Pr) and promotes flowering of long day plants."

(d)In Nepal and nearby areas of India where the capitate-stalked glandular trichome is triggered into growth by parthenocarpy rather than by fertilized ovum, great care is taken to make sure that all male marijuana plants are destroyed as soon as they reveal their sex. This is because unfertilized Indica flowering females can have both stigma and anther protruding from the floral bract. In the Indica gene pool, female-produced pollen carries an allele for long-day parthenocarpy, and seeds resulting from this female-produced pollen will produce another generation of female plants that will also exhibit long-day parthenocarpy during flowering. But if pollen from male plants is introduced into this gene pool, the resulting seeds will produce a generation of females that will exhibit short-day parthenocarpy instead. The allele for long-day parthenocarpy in the female-produced pollen is carried into the gene pool by self-pollination and cross-pollination, and perhaps homozygous is used too loosely here to describe the genetic result.

(8) It appears that the resin sphere acts as an UVB receptor and magnifying lens. The latter apparently lets it gather in a lot more photons than would otherwise be possible; because a lens also acts as a prism, the resin sphere may prevent some wavelengths from being focused where the phytochemical processes are taking place because they could interfere with the phytochemical process that makes THC.

electrostatic collection of resin spheres and non-glandular trichome.
Randalizer
so then, lets see what we have then;

1) infra red, red, orange, yellow: Stretchy growth.

2) Green: No effect (afaik) and can be used during dark in flowering without upsetting the plants flowering cycle.

3) Blue: Stocky growth.

4) UVB: More complex and fully realized THC potential. Better taste and high.

From an evolutionary stand point, canna's stretchy growth for 1) may be due to that emf range (infra red to yellow) being able to better penetrated foliage. when a canna plant senses these wavelengths, it knows to stretch so that it can get to the light. And perhaps it get stocky from blue light as that is what it sees when the plants sees blue sky? This telling it not to stretch so much, perhaps because open sky has more wind that may snap branches? unsure.gif
ReverendRFB
Excellent thread topic Rand! thumbsup.gif Great discussion!
Nothing to add as of yet... but I am on the side of MH being a great asset to the growing cycle during veg. Bushy, stocky, strong plants which seem to mature faster, and develop better once flipped to 12/12.
I know a good grower who only grows using MH, and has for years.. with very impressive results. I do like the HPS for flowering... buds are just... oh so nice.
Perhaps the best thing is to have a full spectrum of sorts in the flowering room.. or
to really shake things up....
We'd do HPS for the first 2 hours and the last 2 hours... then 8 hours with MH. Or ... some variation of that. In hopes to imitate the morning sun and evening sun when the light is at its most 'red', and MH during the middle of the day to imitate the sun high in the sky surrounded by blue sky? Did I understand part of that Scientific jargon correctly that Rand was so lovingly thoughtful to put up for us all? (very high right now)
Great info, keep it coming!
Thanks Randal!

Randalizer
cheers.gif

QUOTE (ReverendRFB @ Jun 2 2009, 11:22 PM) *
but I am on the side of MH being a great asset to the growing cycle during veg. Bushy, stocky, strong plants which seem to mature faster, and develop better once flipped to 12/12.


I'm kinda in shock right now. I just potted up some Jedi to 3 gallon pots (they now stay in the veg tent for a week, after potting up, before going to the flower room), and I have never seen such heavy, stocky, healthy growth. Not since I've grown outdoors! w00t.gif

I'm blaming the MH but my compost has finally come into it's own (I'll make a note in my 2nd diary soonish), and there have been other minor tweaks over the past few weeks.

In any case I am gobstrucked! Pictures in my diary tomorrow.


QUOTE
Perhaps the best thing is to have a full spectrum of sorts in the flowering room.. or


Of course but we want to know which wavelengths, when (what phase of growth) and how much (intensity). I may be adding reptile lights to my movers to boost the UVB in my flower room. naughty.gif Not for a few months though.

You can get spinning movers with multiple lamps of differing wavelengths. But that gets damn pricey real quick like. yes.gif

QUOTE
We'd do HPS for the first 2 hours and the last 2 hours... then 8 hours with MH. Or ... some variation of that.


This could easily be done with a laptop and an LED bank of lights. If they were intense enough. whistling.gif

Hey Rev. Make a post here and link your topic on your experiences with the early matureing plant you have. wink1.gif thumbsup.gif notworthy.gif
Randalizer
QUOTE (Randalizer @ May 12 2009, 12:41 AM) *
From an evolutionary stand point, canna's stretchy growth for 1) may be due to that emf range (infra red to yellow) being able to better penetrated foliage. when a canna plant senses these wavelengths, it knows to stretch so that it can get to the light. And perhaps it get stocky from blue light as that is what it sees when the plants sees blue sky? This telling it not to stretch so much, perhaps because open sky has more wind that may snap branches? unsure.gif



Here is an example how this information could be used. Say you are a SCROG grower. At the beginning of your veg cycle it would seem you would want a lot of runners and stretch. So HPS veg time. Once you have branches all stretched out where you want them along your screen and growing tips just about an inch or so above the screen, switch over to MH and keep your veg cycle for a while. Hit HPS again for 12/12 for about 5-6 weeks depending on strain, then hit them with MH again for the remaining 12/12 time frame.
Randalizer
Doing some research, found this nugget from OT1 here. This bit here is a bit edited for brevity.



QUOTE (oldtimer1 @ Oct 26 2003, 08:21 AM) *
The actual psychoactive complexity any plant is capable of producing is down to the genetics of the plant you are growing.

For any plant to express its maximum potential is down environmental factors. The complexity of the nutrients it gets has a bearing on that.

The most important thing though is the light,


Of course I'm wondering how many old skool folk here are laughing, amused by our discoveries here. lol.gif
Indicanights
This is really interesting stuff for those of us that have sets of MH and HPS bulbs.

I have had my babies vegging under a 600w MH for 2 weeks up to yesterday, I added another 600w MH last night.

I have 5 x BlueRyder Autos about 5 weeks away from harvest - was thinking maybe give them another 3 weeks veg schedule alongside my DP Power Plants and then switch everything to 12/12 with HPS bulbs.

I am now wondering if I should stick an HPS over the autos sooner so I have both MH & HPS (at opposite ends of the tent). Obviously the 'bleed' over from one end of the tent to the other between the 2 bulbs won't be huge, but having both wavelengths bouncing about is an interesting thought.
Indicanights
In fact now I have thought about it after reading Randalizer's thoughts on MH (veg) >HPS (stretch) >MH (last 2 weeks) I am definitely going to switch the bulb tonight and throw in my currently unused 250W enviro (blue) to give them a helping hand.

When I switch to 12/12 in a couple of weeks I will swap the bulbs over so the autos finish with some MH and the Power Plants can start their stretch under HPS.

Can't believe I never thought of that before pinch.gif
Randalizer
cool beans. If you look in my 2nd diary it talks about how I use 3 X 600W (2 X 600W HPS and 1 X 600w MH) in me flower room. All HIDs are on linear rails and each sit over one 1 meter by 2 meter trays. as the plants get older they move closer to the MH tray (in the center, loads of bleed light) and spend their last two weeks under the MH lamp.
ReverendRFB
Gladly Rand,
Well.. I had always had my suspicions about the difference in plant responsiveness to light - MH lamps being more close to the spectrum they'd receive while outside than HPS lamps... therefore in theory growing better. But I even went further into my thinking to wonder.. Perhaps the MH imitates the Spring and Fall sunlight.. where as the HPS will represent the summer months June-August better? Come to find out.. the real change is Early in the day and late in the afternoon. This makes sense to me... and I thank Rand for the info he offered up which helped explain that.

In my own little Terrarium, I have gone from vegging and flowering everything under one HPS light... to having a T5 flouro setup for Mum's and starts, a MH vegging area for the adolescents and teens.... and then a Flowering zone under HPS for the mature and ready adults. Since the addition of the individual area's of growth.. I've been able to observe some startling discoveries. My first discovery is that they all grow much faster now, and I have more ready - more often.. to go into flower... then I really have room for. (I now have that problem of being forced to throw out perfectly good, rooted, female clones - because they just don't have the room to grow up!) --- Whats more noticeable is that the growth is much more squatty.. and (although I can't verify this) I would swear that I am getting a few more budsites along the stems and branches of the plants. This could be a lot of factors also.. but perhaps its because its decreasing the internode length on the branches, allowing for more of them to occupy the same space? The other really, interesting thing about this, is that I'm noticing really fast maturation. I was thrilled to have a White Widow to smoke after 70 days of waiting, and when I grew the sister plant.. I expected another 70 day wait.. but here at 48 days.. it was more than ready for the chop. Take a look at it here and see for yourself. I cut a bud off before chopping her down (because I didn't believe it could really be done) but sure enough.. I was glued to the floor and she was! So.. all other factors being the same and the light being the most notable difference..... this has to be the reason... right? Maybe? If this is true... then I just cut 22 days off the cycle.. which is great! All the other plants I have in my flower room that have come from the MH veg-zone .. are developing really fast, flowering exposively, and really exceeding my expectations. The nice thing about this is.. I'm able to compare notes and pictures from crops only a few months ago to see the difference.. and its astounding. UK420 is of course the most valuable asset to all of this, allowing for such research to be developed, and cultivated. thumbsup.gif

Its a constant state of being. The learning is grown through study of observation. There is always more to discover.
Thanks for listening to my rambling.

Looking forward to more developments and information. yes.gif

-Rev

Randalizer
Maybe we should sub-title this topic, "Old men ramble". lol.gif smile.gif
groovelick
now this may seem wierd.. HPS is red so the spectrum looks more red shifted which indicates the light source is moving away so plant steches out to get closer to it... and blue means the light source is comming closer so kinda squats down.... or maybe this smoke is better than i thought
Randalizer
rofl.gif
potsmoker93
QUOTE (Randalizer @ May 9 2009, 03:08 AM) *
Granted this may be strain specific. In fact I would be a bit surprised if it wasn't. lol.gif. It would be nice to compare notes and find out what strains do well under what lights. Or has this been done in the strain talk forums? unsure.gif

I've also been



Nice one, currentlty testing lumitek, or will be in a week 400w's x 2 in vegging under MH 7200k sumaster pro's, also have 4 x lumatek 400w with 2 MH and 2 HPS, reckon my vegging like last time way back under MH will produce once again bushy plants instead of stretchy, almost dissapointing plants under HPS.

No doubt about it, MH for vegging gives bushy plants, or did with several strains under it, top draw.
onlyorganic
interesting reading guys spliff.gif 00
Randalizer
QUOTE (potsmoker93 @ Jun 3 2009, 03:46 PM) *
Nice one, currentlty testing lumitek,


heya potsmoker93 cheers.gif


Very cool. specool.gif We have a stuck topic on e-ballasts (click) here. If you could post observations on your ballast's performance there, it would help massively. yes.gif But yea it is also cool to get a brief mention of what ballasts you are using. wink1.gif
Here we want to focus on how your plants react under certain lights, certain wavelengths if you would, more than the ballasts involved.

A lot of us here do use e-ballasts. One reason why is the better ones have a very consistent output over their operating life span. This is helpful in many ways, but for me the best part is that it removes one potential variable when one is conducting tests on said plants.
chickenlipsr4
Yeah I have been pondering this recently and this time I am doing plants under blue 250w CFL, then 400w MH (7200K) til end of veg and have just switched to flower and added in another 400w of HPS. We shall see how things turn out. Two Nep Jams I am doing are cloned so hopefully if there is any change in potency or structure I will be able to tell.

I did stumble across this at an online growshop I occasionally use and it's got me thinking.




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These digital lamps allow your digital ballast to achieve it's full potential.

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AVAILABLE IN 2 SIZES ONLY AT PRESENT - 400 and 600 Watts, just click on the dropdown box below.

4K = Full Spectrum - SEEDLING / CUTTING

6.4k - Day Light - MAJORITY OF VEG

4K - Full Spectrum - LAST WEEK OF VEG

3K - Red Orange - MOST OF FLOWERING

10K - Uva Blue - FINAL WEEK

* Designed to work with certified electronic and digital electronic ballasts

* Even lamp life approx (20,000 hrs) with little color shift or loss of FT-CD output"


I posted about it a few weeks ago and was hoping somebody with more funds to throw at a grow than I would have had a go cos that's a lot of £70 bulbs for one grow.



Randalizer
SunPulse is a Life Light Systems company. Life Light makes very high end, very expensive gear. Ballasts, lamps and spinners/movers. I've always wanted to try out one of their 6 arm spinners but I'm afraid any gains wouldn't be worth the cost, except in the ergonomic application of multiple lamps with differing outputs for experimental purposes.

I like how Life Light tries to sell a complete package of lights. wink1.gif I think my cheap-o fluro tubes work well enough for mums and cuttings. And again, if LEDs were intense enough, it would be better to use a bank of LEDs with a laptop controller.

Oh but a 6 arm spinner doing a SCROG! naughty.gif
potsmoker93
QUOTE (Randalizer @ Jun 4 2009, 01:39 AM) *
QUOTE (potsmoker93 @ Jun 3 2009, 03:46 PM) *
Nice one, currentlty testing lumitek,


heya potsmoker93 cheers.gif


Very cool. specool.gif We have a stuck topic on e-ballasts (click) here. is conducting tests on said plants.


No problem matey, have 2 venues now, doing 3000w in one 1600w in another, from what iv read these ballasts are like 600-800w, due to the digital aspect, vertical, should be fun, wanted hurtilux, and top make ballast, could not find it in england, wankers lol.gif, went for next best thing. Sent them an email sayin I want 8-10, got a email saying we dont do uk, sorry.

I keep getting this imagine, why did you move, well because could not get ballast in england, so though sod it will move to somewhere where i can get more weed to smoke and better lumen and par output. lol.gif.
Randalizer
check out NextGen ballasts. wink1.gif
potsmoker93
QUOTE (Randalizer @ Jun 5 2009, 12:19 AM) *
check out NextGen ballasts. wink1.gif


have mate, cannot get them in england, imagine the postage assuming they are heavy like my maxi, cost a fortune, did look at them, 600 and the 1000, cannot get them in england, the hortilux drives me nuts, apparently it is the dogs bollox of bulbs, will never know, cannot get them over here.

Was eager to do a few in vertical setup, not gonna happen, annoying. spoke to someone on the phone, stated, you are the 4th person to ask for 1000w this year, was like what, the only person who sells them, we dont stock them or any wattage by hortilux.

Edit for spelling mellow.gif
Randalizer
QUOTE (potsmoker93 @ Jun 4 2009, 04:37 PM) *
imagine the postage assuming they are heavy like my maxi,


They are the lightest, smallest ballasts you have ever seen. yes.gif The 400W MH/HPS is slightly bigger than the palm of my hand.


QUOTE
the hortilux drives me nuts, apparently it is the dogs bollox of bulbs,



Oh you are going to hate me. I'm using a 400W NextGen with a 400W Hortilux Eye Blue. I also have Hortiliux Eye 600W HPS in me flower room with a 600W conversion from Sunmaster.

jason24msc
Hello all,
I have been experimenting using the blue light from my CFL to slow the growth of my kali mist whilst giving my indica cheese more HPS in the same tent. I have managed to keep the canopy even as of the first week of flowering. Ill post pictures soon.
About the Wavelengths of light; Pfr and Pr called phytochrome far red (Pfr) and phytochrome red (Pr) are proteins expressed within plants. These proteins are responsible for sensing the wavelengths of light so that the plant can tell how shaded it is and whether it should stretch or not. The spectrum of light goes from x rays to UV to blue light through the rainbow to red then far red then microwaves then radio waves. Blue light, is filtered easily by the leaves of plants, but far red light can get through the canopy much easier (much like x-rays compared to radiowaves).
It is this difference in the wavelengths of light getting through the canopy that the plant utilizes to determine its surroundings and whether or not to stretch or not. Blue light is a signal for the plant to say that it is at the top of the canopy and it is recieving the maximum energy, at this point the amount of Pr ebing produced is more than the amount of Pfr being produced and Pr makes the plant dense and broad leaved whilst Pfr makes it stretch for the light. There are other chemicals involved in the sense of direction called auxins but they are stimulated by intensity and not wavelength.
Im sure in cannabis and other fruits and veg that the red and far red ight is a trigger for more long term seasonal changes in the plant such as budding in autumn (which is a very red season) to produce seed for the coming winter. But im also sure that the blue light can help force plants to stay squat by mimicking the light recieved at the top of a canopy. I have one very short northern lights x5 haze kali mist, that i have been putting most blue light on, but it may be a different pheno.
The UVA and UVB thing is related to blue light and red light (HPS or MH). One of these will make your bud stronger, but im too stoned to chek now.
Adios. Nice topic, this is all plant science. http://uwp.edu/~higgs/Lect20Plant.pdf
Randalizer
Nice one Jason. Thank you for confirming my speculations about red and blue light in post 14 of this topic. I must have read that somewhere in my dim and distant science studies past. Looking forward to your next post.

When I get a chance, I will put a 400W HPS in me veg tent and see what sort of results I get. I'm kinda fearing it as my Jedi is already such a stretchy, lanky gal anyways.

cheers.gif
jason24msc
QUOTE (Randalizer @ Jun 5 2009, 06:26 AM) *
When I get a chance, I will put a 400W HPS in me veg tent and see what sort of results I get. I'm kinda fearing it as my Jedi is already such a stretchy, lanky gal anyways.

cheers.gif


I predict that if you gave the flowering plants 1 hour of HPS in the morning and night and combine MH during the rest of the day that this will mimick Autumn ( you may need to change the times a bit for a better mock Autumn ). There will be studies measuring the effect of differing wavelengths of light on the growth patterns of other dioecious anuual flowering herbs like tobacco.
This looks quite interesting. Im gonna give it a quick read. http://www.archive.org/stream/physiologyof...00hill_djvu.txt. It would be interesting to find out now how wavelength of light affects flowering now that we understand vegetative growth.
Randalizer
QUOTE (jason24msc @ Jun 5 2009, 12:34 PM) *
I predict that if you gave the flowering plants 1 hour of HPS in the morning and night and combine MH during the rest of the day that this will mimick Autumn ( you may need to change the times a bit for a better mock Autumn ).



Waaay too much trouble (at least for now). I like my HPS/MH system I have going now in me flower room. check out my 2nd diary for a gander. Near the beggining.
felix_dzerjinski
Yet another diary Randalizer, is there no suppressing the irrepressible biggrin.gif

Good idea my friend, you can be sure Ill be following this one when I'm around thumbsup.gif
Randalizer
cheers.gif Nice of you to stop in mate. yes.gif I was wondering if you know of some post around here that dealt with UV sensors in canna roots. I feel like it would be an interesting data point for this discussion.
Randalizer
Thought I would leave this here.

source

QUOTE (OT1)
A couple of comments, from all the experiments we have done over the years with lighting. We have found that plants that have a high potential in their genes to produce potent buds. Will produce the most psychoactive results when a metal halide is used during the last 4 or 5 weeks of flowering. Given the choice of only one light at the end, for me it would have to be a MH every time. Using a mix of both types of lights produces a result that is close as long as both lamps cover the plants. A HPS on its own produces a very inferior result in comparison with the other 2. We have tested this time and time again using known mother lines and verified the results with blind tastings with as many as 20 people in the study. Every time they put the sodium buds at the bottom of the potency chart 100%! The only time anything ever came lower was with a sample grown with a son-t agro. Some of the people in the last test couldn't distinguish between the mixed lights and the pure halide product, but they tended to be light weights, experienced tokers mostly gave it to the halide only buds, but only by a slight margin.
Randalizer
QUOTE (Randalizer @ Jun 6 2009, 02:27 AM) *
I was wondering if you know of some post around here that dealt with UV sensors in canna roots.



Found it here.

This is an important link to a UV discussion topic here @ UK420. Must reading for anyone who cares about the effect of UV light on canna (and you).

Thank you sittingrelaxing for originally posting this in the link above! cheers.gif I believe this study data helps support my theory that Blue spectrum/UV light (MH lamps) promotes stocky growth in canna.

Which of course brings up the question: Does HPS light cause stretching or does the lack of UV light cause stretching? g.gif


UV-B Light Sensing Mechanism Discovered In Plant Roots


ScienceDaily (Dec. 16, 2008) — Scientists have discovered that plant roots can sense UV-B light and have identified a specific gene that is a vital player in UV-B signaling, the communication between cells.

A study published Dec. 8 in the Early Edition of PNAS reveals that the gene RUS1 measures UV-B light levels and passes this information on to other parts of the plant responsible for growth and development. A low dosage of UV-B light, for example the levels found in shady conditions or under fluorescent lighting, can provide important signals to the rest of the plant and is therefore beneficial to normal plant growth. It helps young plants stay on the right track of development and aids seedling morphogenesis, but too much UV-B light can be toxic.

The study found that plants with a mutated UV-B light sensor gene become hypersensitive to UV-B light and even under low intensity levels of UV-B light, their root growth is stunted and they fail to grow leaves. Therefore the RUS1 gene is responsible for ensuring that young seedlings develop normally even when their roots are exposed to UV-B light.

It's unusual that roots, normally covered in soil, should have sensors for UV-B light, but the RUS1 gene is crucial at the young seedling stage when a plant's roots are resting on the soil surface. Later in a plant's life, roots can be exposed after rainwash, geological movements or animal activity.

The discovery of RUS1 provides scientists with a platform to examine other key genes that receive UV-B light and translate light information into how the plant should develop.

The paper's corresponding author is Zheng-Hui He, professor of biology at San Francisco State University. In addition to He, co-authors include SF State researchers Hongyun Tong, Colin D. Leasure, Xuewen Hou, Gigi Yuen, and Winslow Briggs from the Carnegie Institute of Washington.
source
Chonger
this post was very informative, very good reading chaps.
potsmoker93
QUOTE (Randalizer @ Jun 5 2009, 06:26 AM) *
Nice one Jason. Thank you for confirming my speculations about red and blue light in post 14 of this topic. I must have read that somewhere in my dim and distant science studies past. Looking forward to your next post.


Iv got an idea, on my next grow in my vegging because I will be using clones from the same mother im going to use a 400w under three plants in vegging MH 7200k and further away have 3 plants under HPS same wattage and same ballasts, same clones, this should give an good indication on light effects, same feeding ratio also.

Could be a usual experiment, may even do this in flower room also, compare plant size and yeild, possible problems if they pop up, in effect flower under different spectrums, or combines on a couple of plants compared to either just MH or HPS.

spliff.gif

Randalizer
QUOTE (potsmoker93 @ Jun 7 2009, 04:14 PM) *
Iv got an idea, on my next grow in my vegging because I will be using clones from the same mother im going to use a 400w under three plants in vegging MH 7200k and further away have 3 plants under HPS same wattage and same ballasts, same clones, this should give an good indication on light effects, same feeding ratio also.



applause.gif

Once my garden settles down a bit more (still have to get rid of some thripe). I'm going to do a similar study in my veg tent.
Randalizer
so not wavelength related buuuut......

Here is a pic of a linear rail and why it helps. The only thing about the pic I don't like is that the smaller plants would be leaning in towards the center of the picture, where the light is stationary.
Indicanights
The wavelength of UVB in these reptile bulbs is even lower than MH bulbs, not bad for £22.

Hagen Exo Terra 10.0

Link apologies if considered spam http://www.petzoo.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=717

The 26W cfls claim to have an effective range of 50cm so 4 of those in a 1m x 2m room could have an interesting effect i may investigate if I am $$$ with a month to go.

What think you Randalizer?

Randalizer
Whoops. Somehow missed your Q. I can't check your recomendations ATM (textng), however if you want to use UV for supplemental lighting I strongly suggest reading the UV topic I have linked in an earlier post in this topic. As well you should read Felix and Pro's topic in the Strain/Breeding forum. Called felix and pro's most ultra violet adventure, it details how to use supplemental UV lighting meant for reptiles.

I'll provide a link when I can.

WARNING: When using supplemental UV light, one needs a UVB meter to gauge the strength of the radiation levels. In addition protective clothing (long sleeve shirts and thick gloves) and UV blocking glasses are strongly suggested to prevent skin cancer and glaucoma. yes.gif fear.gif
ReverendRFB
Great read.. good new developments. I'm interested in the UV thing too but I'll need more time to research it.

I had just wondered.. well I've been wondering.. about my reduction in flower time....
One point of information I forgot to include.. that could potentially be a factor.. is that I leave my MH light on 24 hours a day, 6 days a week. On the 7th day, I turn off the light for 6 hours to cool down and stuff.. But then its back to 24 hours of light.
Is it possible that the light regiment is somehow contributing to the reduction in flower time?? -I wonder as I think while stoned- Even when the light is off for those 6 hours, the room is not dark because of the flouro's vegging the mum's, seedlings, and clones. Those never turn off.... so even during those 6 hours the plants are still receiving light... So really.. they never experience any darkness at all until their first night in the flowering room. So... does having these things vegging for like 4-6 weeks straight with no interruption in light - contribute to their early maturation?

hmmm....... g.gif
Randalizer
QUOTE (Randalizer @ Jun 10 2009, 08:22 PM) *
however if you want to use UV for supplemental lighting I strongly suggest reading the UV topic I have linked in an earlier post in this topic. As well you should read Felix and Pro's topic in the Strain/Breeding forum. Called felix and pro's most ultra violet adventure, it details how to use supplemental UV lighting meant for reptiles.

I'll provide a link when I can.


And here it is.

Indicanights. Imo it is far more important to get the rest of a grow room (standard lighting, extraction, compost, etc) sorted before trying UV supplemental lighting. And then getting a UVB (the wavelength we are most interested in in the UV range) meter before the UV lights so you can tell what you are doing to your plants. yes.gif
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