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Sir_Galahad
Hello,

i have to say that when i discovered your seedbank i was really excited. These landraces seems to be pure gold when it comes to breeding, guerilla or outdoor growing !

As a sativa lover, high always wanted to grow this kind of strains and that's why i already ordered some of yours Pahari and Malana !

I read almost all the topics in this section and it turns out that those landraces seems to have monoic tendencies but it's not really clear. That's why i wanted to have your opininon on that issue. Will my plant developp male flowers if they get stressed or even in normal conditions ? Did you or some growers have noticed this traits among their plants ?

Thanks

++

namkha
QUOTE (Sir_Galahad @ Apr 21 2009, 11:47 AM) *
I read almost all the topics in this section and it turns out that those landraces seems to have monoic tendencies but it's not really clear. That's why i wanted to have your opininon on that issue. Will my plant developp male flowers if they get stressed or even in normal conditions ? Did you or some growers have noticed this traits among their plants ?


Hi

Thanks for the question: I have been wanting to clarify this issue, as I believe there is a great deal of misunderstanding about it

I don't think any of our Himalayan lines are monoic/monoecious/"hermaphroditic"

in fact, to the best of my knowledge none of our lines --- and that includes our ganja cultivars from SEAsia etc. --- show any true "hermaphroditism"

the Himalayan lines would be very, very, very unlikely to show any monoecious plants whatsoever

allow me to explain why:

a truly monoic/monoecious/hermaphroditic plant is one which shows both male and female flowers on the same plant because it is in its genetic makeup to do so, independent of conditions

cannabis is a dioecious species --- it has seperate male and female plants --- monoic plants in cannabis are unusual: there are modern western hemp cultivars with monoecious genes; and it is said that monoic plants can be found in sensi ganja genepools

Sam Skunkman claims that truly monoecious plants can be found in regions with a long tradition of cultivating seedless ("sensimilla") ganja, such as Thailand... he claims such plants would have manifested due to bad farming practises: i.e. farmers collecting seed from the flowers of a ganja crop which was grown to be seedless i.e. a crop in which the male plants were cut down prior to shedding pollen.... any seeds found would in all probability be a result of a "hermi" plant pollinating the plants around it... so, many genertations of careless "sensi" ganja growing can be a strong selective pressure for monoic/monoecious/hermi plants

but let's be clear on this: cultivars from charas/hashish producing region are very unlikely to produce monoecious plants because charas/hashish crops are always deliberately seeded... charas/hashish crops are always a seeded crop... i.e. male plants are not cut down until they have shed their pollen and pollinated the female plants

this makes it extremely unlikely that monoecious plants will ever appear in a charas/hashish genepool

the phenomenon you are describing is not "hermaphroditism"

what you are describing is a stress response in the genes of dioecious plant --- i.e. a geneticly female plant which has a geneticly encoded survival response to adverse conditions i.e. an intersex stress response


it is not the same thing as hermaphroditism

and the distinction between these two things is real and significant

the significance is: if you get the grow conditions right you will not see male flowers appearing on female plants

for example: the Himalayan plants you are interested in typical grow on high nutrient poor soils in the Himalaya, a region which has been washed with vast quantities of monsoon rain from May until September for thousands and thousands of years

in such low nutrient soils these cultivars will still grow to 3m or 4m high and produce large yields of flowers

if you grow such Himalayan varieties in soil which has very high levels of N, P and K then large quantities of nutrient crystals will accumulate in their leaves, causing their leaves to curl ---- eventually, if you persist in throwing P and K on them, then male flowers may appear on some of female flowers

my advice: do not use modern nutrient formulas

dig in small quantities of slow release nutrients: something similar to bonemeal... this will not shock the plant with sudden influxes of minerals
Sir_Galahad
Thank you for your great reply Namkha !

As far as i know, there are two different causes for having male flowers on female plants (but i'm still a little confused with all that). What i understood is this (correct me if i'm wrong):

-strains now grown in holland and selled from seedbanks are polyploidic plants. Thats why it cannot be guaranted that those plants will be 100% female. For instance, they could carry four sexual chromosomes and have one male among them (XXXY) and by the way be able to developp male flowers. Is that what you call a monoic plant ?

Your landraces couldn't be of this sort but here is the second possibility:

-there's a gene that carries the "hermaphroditic tendency" and that gene can't be carried by any plant, even a pure haploid female (actually i don't know if original cannabis is haploid or diploid). I guess that's what happen with Thai strains that are known to have this traits. Is that what you call "hermaphrodism" ?

So if i understand well, you mean your plant could be "hermaproditic" (from the definition i just gave) if exposed to high levels of stress. Yet you say your landraces are quite unlikely to developp male flowers.

Do i get it ? ^^

PS: one intersted thing i noticed is that some growers say they can produce 100% female seeds (like "female seeds"). By exposing female plants to various substances (like Ga3 or metal solution, can't remember which metal it is, silver?) they have them producing male flowers with 100% female sex genes. That would mean a female plant still carries in its gene pool the "plan" to build male flowers (in its sexual genes or maybe somewhere else ?)
namkha
hi

no I don't think you understood me correctly

cannabis is a dioecious species: it has male plants, and female plants

monoic, monoecious, and "hermaphroditic" all mean the same thing: a plant which has male and female flowers on the same plants under any conditions

I am not a botanist or biologist: I am not clear on how exactly polyploidy etc. relate to this...

but I am pretty confident your use of the term "hermaphroditic" and "monoic" to refer to female plants showing male flowers under adverse conditions is inaccurate

for practical purposes let's put it this way, even expert breeders like Sam Skunkman who bred the original skunk lines in California did not breed out the potential for intersex stress responses in his lines... it would have been a truly monumental task to achieve that and achieve a good high, flavour etc. etc.

what you and a lot of other indoor growers are calling the "hermaphroditic tendency" I am calling "intersex stress responses" because it is more accurate

the relevance of this whole discussion is this: get the environment right for the plants and you will be unlikely to see male flowers popping out on your plants - don't over-fertilise them with excessive nutrients as almost every indoor grower does

in their natural environment none of our lines show male flowers on female flowers
Sir_Galahad
Okay, too bad you're not a biologist and can't make all this clear ^^

But still, i'm happy with your answer when you say "in their natural environment none of our lines show male flowers on female flowers"

I intend to grow some Pahari and Malana outdoors so according to you i should have no problem if i keep an eye on fertilizing.

Thanks for your quick answer to my question, can't want to grow those landraces !
Matsi
I think what namkha is trying to tell you is , that some strains from the same areas are beeing bad culitvated from bad farmers, and therefor, like most strains will do under stress, can or have started "hermin". These "farmers" then haverst the hermie seeds, and use them again and again and so on. if you get to those seeds (wich RSC is NOT selling ofcourse), ofcourse you will have plants with the same tendensese, as their hermie parents.

With seeds from RSC, you get a pure line, that isnt made by a "hermie farmer", but just grown normaly with males and females together like all other charas cultivaters would do. These plants/seeds will not have a hermie tendense at all. but if you put them on a lot of stress, like feeding them to much "unatrual"nutrients, or any other stress, they will, like any other cannaplant, be posible to go "hermie" from stress......same with most strains.

these lines have grown the same places for thousands of years, and then sudenly we choose to through them into totaly different envoirments, from what they are used to, wich also could course the plant to hermie easyer than other lines, that are already used/breeded to grow other places than it original origin.

but that does not mean that they are carrying any tendensese...just that they are not used to our soil, nutrients and different sunlight.

So treat them with care, and you wont see any males flowers....i am at day 55 or so on the malanas indoor, and do not see any males flowers what so ever smile.gif even mine have been stressed in the beginning of their life.
namkha
QUOTE (Sir_Galahad @ Apr 21 2009, 02:59 PM) *
I intend to grow some Pahari and Malana outdoors so according to you i should have no problem if i keep an eye on fertilizing.


hey

you will have no problems whatsoever with intersex stress responses growing these plants outdoors

my point about a real "hermie" plant was this: wherever and however you grow it, it will turn out to be hermie - it will have male and female flowers on it, regardless of what you do

none of our lines will have those type of plants in:

there are three types of drug cannabis crop in the world

1. seedless "sensimilla" ganja --- flowering tips with no (or very very few) seeds

2. seeded ganja

3. hashish and charas - which is always made from seeded female plants


there are two types of "hermies"

1. genuine monoecious "hermies" --- very unusual in cannabis

2. intersex stress response "hermies" --- e.g. a female dioecious cannabis plant which can produce male flowers when it is very stressed out


you will not find any of "hermie" no. 1 in our lines

if you are growing outdoors you are very, very, very unlikely to find any of hermie no. 2 in our lines

this is certain to be true if you are growing the Himalayan lines outdoors

but if you are growing indoors you could find the plants become stressed due to adverse conditions: HPS light spectrum, excess ferts (always the most likely explanation), watering regime, or whatever... this will be the first generation any of our lines have been grown indoors

the source of our SE Asian lines claims to have never seen any hermi or intersex traits growing the lines outdoors in native enviro

"hermaphroditic" traits of any kind are very unlikely to emerge in seeded drug crops, for the reasons I explained above
Sir_Galahad
Thank you Namkha and Matsi !

I'm really interested in what you say so i have a few questions ^^

QUOTE (namkha)
3. hashish and charas - which is always made from seeded female plants


What's the reason of this ? Because it's a lot of work to remove males from the fields ? Because farmers intend to have their plants pollinated in order to start a new crop from the seeds the year after ? Both ? ^^


QUOTE ('namkha)
there are two types of "hermies"

1. genuine monoecious "hermies" --- very unusual in cannabis

2. intersex stress response "hermies" --- e.g. a female dioecious cannabis plant which can produce male flowers when it is very stressed out


To what sort of plant do you think Thaï weed belongs ? As it is famous to developp male flowers ? N°2 because it is grown in appropriate conditions ? Do they show these traits in their original environment ?


PS: Natsi, do you have a grow diary where i could see your plants ?
namkha
QUOTE (Sir_Galahad @ Apr 21 2009, 03:31 PM) *
Thank you Namkha and Matsi !

I'm really interested in what you say so i have a few questions ^^

QUOTE (namkha)
3. hashish and charas - which is always made from seeded female plants


What's the reason of this ? Because it's a lot of work to remove males from the fields ? Because farmers intend to have their plants pollinated in order to start a new crop from the seeds the year after ? Both ? ^^

QUOTE ('namkha)
there are two types of "hermies"

1. genuine monoecious "hermies" --- very unusual in cannabis

2. intersex stress response "hermies" --- e.g. a female dioecious cannabis plant which can produce male flowers when it is very stressed out


To what sort of plant do you think Thaï weed belongs ? As it is famous to developp male flowers ? N°2 because it is grown in appropriate conditions ? Do they show these traits in their original environment ?


PS: Natsi, do you have a grow diary where i could see your plants ?



Hashish farmers in the Himalaya will use the seeds for next years crop and for food --- cannabis seed is a vital part of the traditional Himalayan diet... Afghani hashish is also produced from seeded crops... good charas seeds are expensive for a farmer to buy in Afghanistan... if they have a good line, thhey can produce there own seeds more cheaply

it is not necessary to produce sensi to make superb hashish...

Thai weed belongs to group 2 --- as does 99.99% of drug cannabis

I think you haven't understood what I am saying by a true genuine monoecious plant --- that would be a plant which puts out male and female flowers, probably througout flowering... nobody would deliberately grow such a plant for dope...

Thai plants are only famous for producing male flowers with Westerners... for two reasons:

1. the main reason: the Thai plants are almost certainly being grown indoors and grown badly... very very few Westerners would be able to grow Thai outdoors and have it finish up properly: most Thai will flower at least until midDec, probably until midFeb... imagine the poor plant having P and K thrown on it for all that time! sad.gif

2. the seeds may have been picked out of sensi... the chance that it may have originated from a freak true hermi is much more likely

if you want to see Matsi's plants you can look on the Malana Indoors thread
Matsi


No...but check out the "malana Indoor" thread in here.....i am updating my plants in there. the last 3-4 pages in that thread, you will see my pictures smile.gif
morganna
Couldn't agree with you more about indoor growers using way too much fertilizer namkha......don't know why people think pouring on the nutrients makes the plants grow better when in fact it does exactly the opposite ......when I grow indoors I only use coco as the medium and I use liquid hydroponic fertilizer diluted 4 times more than what the bottles say to use it at.......I also grow under very high light levels using both metal halide and sodiums together so the plants get the full light spectrum.......been doing it this way for a very long time and have never had problems......
Sir_Galahad
Actually, i really don't mean to offend you in any way Namkha, but i don't think it is this simple (about type N°1 and 2). Maybe those types exists but i think it's really more complicated because of the interactions they could have. I guess some plants would have naturally more tendency to turn hermie than other and we could explain this by considering there are several genes controlling the hermie tendency. Just add to this the polyploidic concern and you can see the mess we are in ^^

Anyways i got it right about your definition of truly monoecious plant, defenitively plants that we don't wanna have in our grows ^^

Thank you for your answers that just remind me how interesting cannabis is and how i love to discuss about it !
Sir_Galahad
Just wanted to say that i asked a moderator if he could change the tittle of my topic which i think could be misunderstood... I think the current tittle sounds like it suggest that your strains actually have monoic tendencies while i just wanted to ask if they have some...

Apologies ^^

EDIT: i got the answer from Felix and he said he couldn't do this ! Turns out that you're the moderator of this section Namkha ^^. I think you would agree with me that it would be better to exchange the tittle with something like "Any monic tendencies in your landraces ?"

Cheers
namkha
QUOTE (Sir_Galahad @ Apr 21 2009, 03:58 PM) *
Actually, i really don't mean to offend you in any way Namkha, but i don't think it is this simple (about type N°1 and 2).


mate it is that simple - plants are either monoecious or dioecious

monoecious = male and female flowers on the same plant

dioecious = male and female flowers on seperate plants


strains which put out male flowers on female flowers when they are stressed are not monoecious

I doubt they need a Y chromosome to be able to have an intersex stress response

can you find me any reliable piece of research showing that they do need a Y chromosome to have a stress response i.e. to be polyploidal? sounds like bs to me

and yes, if you could find someone who can change the title of this thread I would appreciate it

I do not have moderator rights in this forum
Sir_Galahad
I agree with you there's no need for the plants to be polyploidic to developp male flowers. All this considered i do think this is really more complex than we think but i won't go further in this debate because nobody has reliable sources (does not mean what you say doesn't make sense, i just think it's more complex)

About the tittle issue, which i really care about, i'm gonna pm back Felix to ask him if he can find someone to fix this

Thanks
namkha
QUOTE (Sir_Galahad @ Apr 21 2009, 07:28 PM) *
I agree with you there's no need for the plants to be polyploidic to developp male flowers. All this considered i do think this is really more complex than we think but i won't go further in this debate because nobody has reliable sources (does not mean what you say doesn't make sense, i just think it's more complex)

About the tittle issue, which i really care about, i'm gonna pm back Felix to ask him if he can find someone to fix this

Thanks


hey Sir_Galahad - many thanks for getting the name of the thread changed
Sir_Galahad
No problems mate !

I was really embarassed by this ambiguous title ! The less i could do was to have it changed ^^

As i'm really excited about your company i don't want anybody to think you sell hermies !

Keep up the good job !
tukorponty
High
There is no need to change anything the answers are here smile.gif
Grow as mentioned above and there will not be any problem. Low ferts all organic mixed light and with much patience biggrin.gif
That is what is all about right ? wink1.gif

keep up the good work Namkha show the landraces ,preserve them.

Peace
TP
namkha
A customer of RSC who is an experienced grower, and who knows how to grow traditional heirloom cannabis recently wrote to me:


QUOTE
lately i have been getting alot of Pm´s from people that have had some male flowers on there plants. mostly from the lebanese and some from the malana. these people a freaked out, and calling them hermies, and do not understand how it can happen to them.

I then try to explain to them in my humble english that what they are seeing are not hermies, but simply a few male flowers around becourse of the strees they put on to them by using "bad" soil and way to many nutes. A hermie will always be 50% male and 50% female imo. and is not the same thing as stressing a plant so they show a few male nanners.

here is in example of one of one of my lebanese creating male nanners becourse of to many nutes (a test i made where i feed 1 leb normal amounts of nutes, and the other 4 no nutes at all, but only fresh soil now and then ) this plant is the only one showing them of all my lebs, and its also the one that i am feeding "western" nutes.


My point to this Pm is, that people dont seem to be aware of the "chance" they are taking by putting plants that have been growing outdoor in the same soil, and same envoirment for hundreds of years, into there growtents and then starts feeding them like a normaly indoor adapted strain. they still get very very surprised that they have some maleflowers.

So i was thinking, that maybe you want to make a statement about what the RCS strains actely are, and how and where they are best to grow smile.gif just so you wont have a lot of people suddely getting frustrated over something they IMo should already be aware off (by reading the homepage and forum) but obviously still dont understand.
namkha
QUOTE (namkha @ Jul 16 2009, 01:45 PM) *
i will suggest not to use nutes at all, but just give them fresh soil now and then



this is the essential points

do not add new nutes by using liquid high intensity ferts

add new nutes by potting up into fresh soil
pantagruelion

Plant sex determination and sex chromosomes.
by: D. Charlesworth

"Sex determination systems in plants have evolved many times from hermaphroditic ancestors (including monoecious plants with separate male and female flowers on the same individual), and sex chromosome systems have arisen several times in flowering plant evolution. Consistent with theoretical models for the evolutionary transition from hermaphroditism to monoecy, multiple sex determining genes are involved, including male-sterility and female-sterility factors. The requirement that recombination should be rare between these different loci is probably the chief reason for the genetic degeneration of Y chromosomes. Theories for Y chromosome degeneration are reviewed in the light of recent results from genes on plant sex chromosomes."
namkha
hi PTG

thanks for the info, but as far as I am able to understand that quote, I don't think that it adds anything very helpful to the stress-response discussion

the purpose of this thread, from my standpoint, is to clarify this essential point:

the RSC collection of heirloom cannabis cultivars need to be grown using different methods from the usual ways that the Western indoor scene grow the standard Dutch/American strains

the method suggested for people growing RSC heirloom strains indoors is

do not use liquid ferts
veg in small pots
pot up into small medium plots if new nutes are required during veg
after approx two weeks of 12/12 pot up into fresh compost for flowering nutes... optional: dig in slow release nutes like bonemeal
n.b. rsc heirlooms will of course continue to root during flowering (as this method implies)
pantagruelion
Hi namhka!


I'm sorry,i made an error,this wasn't to be posted here... tongue.gif


This link may be useful to learn more about sexuality in cannabis :sexual diffentiation of cannabis sativa
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