Question for the horticulturists out there.......possibly a stupid one but please bear with me. Don't think it's been asked or answered before.
Will a run of the mill non-organic MP compost such as JAB, Westlands etc, not innoculated with rootgrow, granules, essence or whatever, have or develop a useful microherd if fed with just the basic biobizz grow and bloom?
If not are the components of these nutes that require organic breakdown just being wasted?
Add on question.....
Do/can seaweed extracts (maxicrop or vitax) or fishmix act as a basic innoculants?
Cheers.....
SBP.
Full Version: Garden Centre MP Compost + Biobizz - Microherd.....?
Hi SatanicBluePixie,
Bear with me im not the best expert on compost but i to am returning to the stuff and will try to answer your questions.
1. Most if not all compost organic or non-organic come with a micro herd sometimes this is added or is a result of the companies raping peat and other elements from where ever they get there dirt from e.g. its already in the ground anyway! this microherd is a compilation of good beneficial bacteria and bad pathergens ect.
2. I think biobiz has a little hydrocarbons in it so the microherd will feed off it both good and bad but what people generally tend to do is feed the microherd with molasses thats the good stuff causes a massive replication spurt. So if possible use that the organic stuff its only 70p a tin, the thing is the bad bacteria will also replicate so thats why people tend to protect the roots ect with inoculants canna trichoderma is the cheapest ive seen to do so far but as for bacteria that breaks down compounds within the soil to feed to the plant im not sure what product supplies them microbes maybe rootgrow??? i could do with that one being answered.
3. Seaweed extracts and fish mixes sound like N feeds to me and arnt really geared around feeding the microherd sugars (hydrocarbons) mostly do that.
So to recap use molasses to feed the microherd Trichoderma to inoculate the roots and wait on someone else to recommend a product that supplies microbes that relate to the breakdown of compounds and material within the compost. Hope that helps
Bear with me im not the best expert on compost but i to am returning to the stuff and will try to answer your questions.
1. Most if not all compost organic or non-organic come with a micro herd sometimes this is added or is a result of the companies raping peat and other elements from where ever they get there dirt from e.g. its already in the ground anyway! this microherd is a compilation of good beneficial bacteria and bad pathergens ect.
2. I think biobiz has a little hydrocarbons in it so the microherd will feed off it both good and bad but what people generally tend to do is feed the microherd with molasses thats the good stuff causes a massive replication spurt. So if possible use that the organic stuff its only 70p a tin, the thing is the bad bacteria will also replicate so thats why people tend to protect the roots ect with inoculants canna trichoderma is the cheapest ive seen to do so far but as for bacteria that breaks down compounds within the soil to feed to the plant im not sure what product supplies them microbes maybe rootgrow??? i could do with that one being answered.
3. Seaweed extracts and fish mixes sound like N feeds to me and arnt really geared around feeding the microherd sugars (hydrocarbons) mostly do that.
So to recap use molasses to feed the microherd Trichoderma to inoculate the roots and wait on someone else to recommend a product that supplies microbes that relate to the breakdown of compounds and material within the compost. Hope that helps
QUOTE (RePtOiD @ Mar 30 2009, 04:58 PM) 
Hi SatanicBluePixie,
Bear with me im not the best expert on compost but i to am returning to the stuff and will try to answer your questions.
1. Most if not all compost organic or non-organic come with a micro herd sometimes this is added or is a result of the companies raping peat and other elements from where ever they get there dirt from e.g. its already in the ground anyway! this microherd is a compilation of good beneficial bacteria and bad pathergens ect.
2. I think biobiz has a little hydrocarbons in it so the microherd will feed off it both good and bad but what people generally tend to do is feed the microherd with molasses thats the good stuff causes a massive replication spurt. So if possible use that the organic stuff its only 70p a tin, the thing is the bad bacteria will also replicate so thats why people tend to protect the roots ect with inoculants canna trichoderma is the cheapest ive seen to do so far but as for bacteria that breaks down compounds within the soil to feed to the plant im not sure what product supplies them microbes maybe rootgrow??? i could do with that one being answered.
3. Seaweed extracts and fish mixes sound like N feeds to me and arnt really geared around feeding the microherd sugars (hydrocarbons) mostly do that.
So to recap use molasses to feed the microherd Trichoderma to inoculate the roots and wait on someone else to recommend a product that supplies microbes that relate to the breakdown of compounds and material within the compost. Hope that helps
Bear with me im not the best expert on compost but i to am returning to the stuff and will try to answer your questions.
1. Most if not all compost organic or non-organic come with a micro herd sometimes this is added or is a result of the companies raping peat and other elements from where ever they get there dirt from e.g. its already in the ground anyway! this microherd is a compilation of good beneficial bacteria and bad pathergens ect.
2. I think biobiz has a little hydrocarbons in it so the microherd will feed off it both good and bad but what people generally tend to do is feed the microherd with molasses thats the good stuff causes a massive replication spurt. So if possible use that the organic stuff its only 70p a tin, the thing is the bad bacteria will also replicate so thats why people tend to protect the roots ect with inoculants canna trichoderma is the cheapest ive seen to do so far but as for bacteria that breaks down compounds within the soil to feed to the plant im not sure what product supplies them microbes maybe rootgrow??? i could do with that one being answered.
3. Seaweed extracts and fish mixes sound like N feeds to me and arnt really geared around feeding the microherd sugars (hydrocarbons) mostly do that.
So to recap use molasses to feed the microherd Trichoderma to inoculate the roots and wait on someone else to recommend a product that supplies microbes that relate to the breakdown of compounds and material within the compost. Hope that helps
Thanks for the reply Reptoid - for the record I do innoculate my compost - I've used rootgrow (mycorrihizal fungi) since around my second grow, and more recently used essence as a root drench aswell as a foliar spray (includes trichodermia + benefical bacteria). I also use mollasses as a supplement although BB grow is mollasses based so will provide an existing microherd a sugar boost. Seaweed I understand is generally all good for palnts and compost but particlarly favoured by beneficial fungi...
Question arises as the most basic KISS style advise to newb soil growers on this forum is use a decent MP, and feed with grow and bloom and maybe a little epsoms, and I've often wondered where the microherd comes from in this situation. I found a snippet of info a while ago that suggested that BB Grow includes some live beneficials although I understand that OT1 isn't convinced of this.
So i guess my question is are garden centre bought MP composts supposedly sterile, or do they include both good and bad bacteria in the base materials?
Thinking about it I guess they must - hence when badly stored, compost is taken over by the bad bacteria and goes stinky and anearobic, but would appreciate an expert opinion........felix?.....OT1?
You asked me so:-
Most just multipurpose composts are made of 80 to 90% peat, peat by nature is sterile, thats why human and animal bodies thrown peat bogs are preserved for hundreds to thousands of years without decay. It is a medium that does not support life good or bad.
So near pure peat multipurpose composts, act very like an inert hydroponic medium as they have no micro heard and virtually nothing to support their life, its a hostile medium to them, like a human trying to live on the moon without life support.
Multipurpose with added JI, is in fact peat compost with added loam, loam is top quality top soil, a teaspoon of top soil contains billions of bacteria and fungi, its heaving with life, mixing loam in the compost brings it partly to life and changes it so its more supportive of life.
Inoculants are a mix of the best species of the micro-heard. For them to do well they need a good environment in pure peat they will decline and slowly die out, so reapplying would be needed. Even if mycorrhiza makes symbiosis with plant roots, the peat contains little or nothing to sustain it. So to get the best out of inoculants they need a medium that supports them.
To support and sustain the micro heard a medium with every thing they need to grow and be healthy should be in the mix.
If you start with peat a dead substance, things that can be added that bring it to life adding loam, rock dust, worm casts, rotted manure all support and sustain and add microbes.
Do seaweed extracts (maxicrop or vitax) or fishmix act as a basic inoculants?
No, but used on soil or a living compost they support the micro heard!
Biobizz say their grow has bacteria in it, is it effective watered into an inert medium? No!
IMHO if you want to use straight cheap peat composts, you are better off using chemical fertilisers.
Edit to add to understand more about soil have a read here, its mostly correct, a really good compost does a similar job to that of soil in a container or pot.
Most just multipurpose composts are made of 80 to 90% peat, peat by nature is sterile, thats why human and animal bodies thrown peat bogs are preserved for hundreds to thousands of years without decay. It is a medium that does not support life good or bad.
So near pure peat multipurpose composts, act very like an inert hydroponic medium as they have no micro heard and virtually nothing to support their life, its a hostile medium to them, like a human trying to live on the moon without life support.
Multipurpose with added JI, is in fact peat compost with added loam, loam is top quality top soil, a teaspoon of top soil contains billions of bacteria and fungi, its heaving with life, mixing loam in the compost brings it partly to life and changes it so its more supportive of life.
Inoculants are a mix of the best species of the micro-heard. For them to do well they need a good environment in pure peat they will decline and slowly die out, so reapplying would be needed. Even if mycorrhiza makes symbiosis with plant roots, the peat contains little or nothing to sustain it. So to get the best out of inoculants they need a medium that supports them.
To support and sustain the micro heard a medium with every thing they need to grow and be healthy should be in the mix.
If you start with peat a dead substance, things that can be added that bring it to life adding loam, rock dust, worm casts, rotted manure all support and sustain and add microbes.
Do seaweed extracts (maxicrop or vitax) or fishmix act as a basic inoculants?
No, but used on soil or a living compost they support the micro heard!
Biobizz say their grow has bacteria in it, is it effective watered into an inert medium? No!
IMHO if you want to use straight cheap peat composts, you are better off using chemical fertilisers.
Edit to add to understand more about soil have a read here, its mostly correct, a really good compost does a similar job to that of soil in a container or pot.
QUOTE (oldtimer1 @ Apr 2 2009, 11:12 AM)
You asked me so:-
Most just multipurpose composts are made of 80 to 90% peat, peat by nature is sterile, thats why human and animal bodies thrown peat bogs are preserved for hundreds to thousands of years without decay. It is a medium that does not support life good or bad.
So near pure peat multipurpose composts, act very like an inert hydroponic medium as they have no micro heard and virtually nothing to support their life, its a hostile medium to them, like a human trying to live on the moon without life support.
Multipurpose with added JI, is in fact peat compost with added loam, loam is top quality top soil, a teaspoon of top soil contains billions of bacteria and fungi, its heaving with life, mixing loam in the compost brings it partly to life and changes it so its more supportive of life.
Inoculants are a mix of the best species of the micro-heard. For them to do well they need a good environment in pure peat they will decline and slowly die out, so reapplying would be needed. Even if mycorrhiza makes symbiosis with plant roots, the peat contains little or nothing to sustain it. So to get the best out of inoculants they need a medium that supports them.
To support and sustain the micro heard a medium with every thing they need to grow and be healthy should be in the mix.
If you start with peat a dead substance, things that can be added that bring it to life adding loam, rock dust, worm casts, rotted manure all support and sustain and add microbes.
Do seaweed extracts (maxicrop or vitax) or fishmix act as a basic inoculants?
No, but used on soil or a living compost they support the micro heard!
Biobizz say their grow has bacteria in it, is it effective watered into an inert medium? No!
IMHO if you want to use straight cheap peat composts, you are better off using chemical fertilisers.
Edit to add to understand more about soil have a read here, its mostly correct, a really good compost does a similar job to that of soil in a container or pot.
Most just multipurpose composts are made of 80 to 90% peat, peat by nature is sterile, thats why human and animal bodies thrown peat bogs are preserved for hundreds to thousands of years without decay. It is a medium that does not support life good or bad.
So near pure peat multipurpose composts, act very like an inert hydroponic medium as they have no micro heard and virtually nothing to support their life, its a hostile medium to them, like a human trying to live on the moon without life support.
Multipurpose with added JI, is in fact peat compost with added loam, loam is top quality top soil, a teaspoon of top soil contains billions of bacteria and fungi, its heaving with life, mixing loam in the compost brings it partly to life and changes it so its more supportive of life.
Inoculants are a mix of the best species of the micro-heard. For them to do well they need a good environment in pure peat they will decline and slowly die out, so reapplying would be needed. Even if mycorrhiza makes symbiosis with plant roots, the peat contains little or nothing to sustain it. So to get the best out of inoculants they need a medium that supports them.
To support and sustain the micro heard a medium with every thing they need to grow and be healthy should be in the mix.
If you start with peat a dead substance, things that can be added that bring it to life adding loam, rock dust, worm casts, rotted manure all support and sustain and add microbes.
Do seaweed extracts (maxicrop or vitax) or fishmix act as a basic inoculants?
No, but used on soil or a living compost they support the micro heard!
Biobizz say their grow has bacteria in it, is it effective watered into an inert medium? No!
IMHO if you want to use straight cheap peat composts, you are better off using chemical fertilisers.
Edit to add to understand more about soil have a read here, its mostly correct, a really good compost does a similar job to that of soil in a container or pot.
Thanks for taking the time to explain that OT1 - it's a question thats bugged me for a while. I'm planning on adding about 20% sterilised loam to my JAB MP for future grows to provide a better home for the microherd......
Hi oldtimer1,
Can i ask you a question/opinion relating to the info you posted here westlands MP with added john ins is my favoured compost at the moh due to availability ect its what i can get hold of, i dont know its composition and how much peat it contains but i would imagine its allot. Im curently growing in it with chem based ferts but was going too go the bio bizz route till i read what you posted. Now i just like to use the compost straight no mixing of anything ect would i be better off useing chem based ferts with this combo. thank you.
Can i ask you a question/opinion relating to the info you posted here westlands MP with added john ins is my favoured compost at the moh due to availability ect its what i can get hold of, i dont know its composition and how much peat it contains but i would imagine its allot. Im curently growing in it with chem based ferts but was going too go the bio bizz route till i read what you posted. Now i just like to use the compost straight no mixing of anything ect would i be better off useing chem based ferts with this combo. thank you.
Westlands MP + JI = 80% peat a little west + the rest is loam, it works fine with bb nutrients.
Westlands container a hanging basket is 75% peat a little west + the rest loam also works well with bb nutrients.
West advanced + is 50% peat and a lot of west plus not sure what else. Works with bb nutrients, but not as well as the composts with added loam.
West plus is fungally rotted timber remains and supports some micro life, is improved by adding inoculants.
Semi sterilised loam as in the + JI, already has has some good micro heard and supports a wide variety, can be improved by adding bacterial/fungal and or mycorrhizal inoculant.
So you know:-
Rootgrow is just mycorrhizals.
Granules is a blend of mycorrhizals and bacterial and fungal spores.
Essence is a blend of just bacterial and fungal spores. No mycorrhizals.
Westlands container a hanging basket is 75% peat a little west + the rest loam also works well with bb nutrients.
West advanced + is 50% peat and a lot of west plus not sure what else. Works with bb nutrients, but not as well as the composts with added loam.
West plus is fungally rotted timber remains and supports some micro life, is improved by adding inoculants.
Semi sterilised loam as in the + JI, already has has some good micro heard and supports a wide variety, can be improved by adding bacterial/fungal and or mycorrhizal inoculant.
So you know:-
Rootgrow is just mycorrhizals.
Granules is a blend of mycorrhizals and bacterial and fungal spores.
Essence is a blend of just bacterial and fungal spores. No mycorrhizals.
thanx for that oldtimer1 ill keep to my original plan then (bb-route) cheers
Great info! Thanks OT and others!
Fantastic reading!
Fantastic reading!
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