[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

Degsy, on 02 March 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Good post in general Felix but can I say that I don't agree that we can explain how the universe came into existence without the need for a creator

In that case the theory could would work just as easily WITH a creator , the creator sitting outside of time and space and clicking his fingures to create a singularity out of which our universe expanded

It's a distinct possibility but not necessary. M theory does a fairly good job of explaining how the universe could have come into being without the need for an external creator.

ratdog, on 02 March 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

At best we have the big bang theory but i don`t think we have an explanation of how the universe came into existence creator or not, although i don`t believe in a god, just nature

You might enjoy Hawking's Book 'The Grand design'

Quote

In it, Hawking describes how M-theory, a candidate ultimate theory of everything, may offer answers to the question of creation. "According to M-theory, ours is not the only universe," Hawking writes. "Instead M-theory predicts that a great many universes were created out of nothing. Their creation does not require the intervention of some supernatural being or god."

The universe arises from scientific processes, not God – as Hawking himself would have agreed decades ago.

[ratdog]

Felix Dzerzhinsky, on 03 March 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

You might enjoy Hawking's Book 'The Grand design'

Quote

In it, Hawking describes how M-theory, a candidate ultimate theory of everything, may offer answers to the question of creation. "According to M-theory, ours is not the only universe," Hawking writes. "Instead M-theory predicts that a great many universes were created out of nothing. Their creation does not require the intervention of some supernatural being or god."

The universe arises from scientific processes, not God – as Hawking himself would have agreed decades ago.

Thanks Felix, does he explain what happened before the big bang in that book? that was what i was getting at, i didn`t think anyone could possibly know what created the conditions for it to happen and what where those conditions came from?

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing"

i understand this but the universe had to have space in which to get going, where the hell did the space come from?

[Hughie Green]

What is outside our universe that it is expanding into?, if it is an expanding bubble what is on the other side, more space?,
mind boggling to the max, need a pipe now I've broken my brain thinking about it

[strawberry]

Arnold Layne, on 03 March 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

That was my term, it was not a term I heard from him.

Clearly.

Arnold Layne, on 03 March 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Keep your suspicions to yourself, they're misdirecting you.

Then please go ahead and explain what aspects of 'quantum mathematics' are at odds with 7-day creationism. All I see is "uni student has some extreme views", and that's hardly a shocking revelation.

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

ratdog, on 03 March 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

Thanks Felix, does he explain what happened before the big bang in that book? that was what i was getting at, i didn`t think anyone could possibly know what created the conditions for it to happen and what where those conditions came from?

"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing"

i understand this but the universe had to have space in which to get going, where the hell did the space come from?

I'll let you know when I've finished reading it as I've only just started and as Hughie points out it's mind boggling stuff. However from what I've read elsewhere M Theory does explain what came before the big bang and what actually triggered it. As far as I can gather it suggests that two 'branes' collided and that triggered the big bang.

There's a video montage taken from the Horizon 'Parallel Universes' that explains the essentials



And it looks like most of the complete show is available here

This post has been edited by Felix Dzerzhinsky: 03 March 2012 - 11:51 PM

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

And there are a series of lectures by Leonard Susskind on String theory and M theory available on Youtube, they each run to about and hour and three quarters but are pretty deep.

[Arnold Layne]

strawberry, on 03 March 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Then please go ahead and explain what aspects of 'quantum mathematics' are at odds with 7-day creationism.

How the blazes should I know?
I merely offered an observation, no need to go all ballistic and burst a gonad now, is there?

Jeez, some folks! Seems that some non creationists are as batty and fundamentalist as those they froth at the mush about.

[Boojum]

Arnold Layne, on 04 March 2012 - 08:26 AM, said:

strawberry, on 03 March 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Then please go ahead and explain what aspects of 'quantum mathematics' are at odds with 7-day creationism.

How the blazes should I know?
I merely offered an observation, no need to go all ballistic and burst a gonad now, is there?

Jeez, some folks! Seems that some non creationists are as batty and fundamentalist as those they froth at the mush about.

Apologies and with the best will in the world I didn't see Strawberry going ballistic or bursting a gonad, and certainly not frothing at the mush

Sorry man, I like and respect you, I also like and respect Strawberry

What I kinda find fascinating about quantum theory is not what it does or doesn't say about the theology of the Abrahamic religions, but the clear links it has with 'Eastern' philosophy (especially Taoist philosophy - the deepest levels of Taoism really do resonate with the deepest levels of quantum theory - that fascinates me but I'm not nearly clever enough to properly get my head round it)

This post has been edited by Boojum: 04 March 2012 - 08:56 AM

[Arnold Layne]

Booj, Strawberry, I meant to add a smiley or ten, just to indicate I was being somewhat silly and giddy. Read me with a giggle going on, and you won't misread me I hope.

Mind you, I think that given the level of mockery us creationist get here on UK420, a little the other way is surely permissible? My apologies, if not.....

I hasten also to add, yet again, that I have no understanding of quantum. I was merely making an observation which seemed to balance the argument to date. The man in question clearly had no issues, that was all I had to say. Given his obvious intelligence and ability, I thought this was relevant to the debate.

[ratdog]

Felix Dzerzhinsky, on 03 March 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

And there are a series of lectures by Leonard Susskind on String theory and M theory

I`ve watched quite a lot of Susskind`s stuff on NOVA PBS, i expect you know but it`s the US version of Horizon but a bit more cutting edge imo, i`m really struggling with "branes" and the idea they come into contact now and again to create the next big bang, i`ve watched Fabric of the Cosmos, that`s pretty good for quantum string theory too, but i must admit i`m still learning a lot about the physics of the universe we can actually measure let alone multiverses ect i understand that quantum physics has never been proved wrong in it`s estimations so far so try to keep and open mind but some of the ideas from some of the physicists can seem just plain barmy at times


e2s, Nova are remaking Cosmos so i hope they will cover more of this is greater detail

This post has been edited by ratdog: 04 March 2012 - 01:06 PM

[Boojum]

Thicky, on 04 March 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Boojum, on 04 March 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

What I kinda find fascinating about quantum theory is not what it does or doesn't say about the theology of the Abrahamic religions, but the clear links it has with 'Eastern' philosophy (especially Taoist philosophy - the deepest levels of Taoism really do resonate with the deepest levels of quantum theory - that fascinates me but I'm not nearly clever enough to properly get my head round it)

Blackfoot Physics written by F David Peat is a fantastic read..

Quote

Blackfoot Physics
A Journey into the Native American Universe

One summer in the 1980s, theoretical physicist F. David Peat went to the Blackfoot Sun Dance ceremony in Alberta, Canada. Hitherto having spent all his life steeped in and influenced by linear Western science, he was entranced by the Native world view and, through dialogue circles between scientists and Native Elders, he began to explore it in greater depth. Blackfoot Physics is the account of his discoveries. In an edifying synthesis of anthropology, history, metaphysics, cosmology and quantum theory, Peat compares the medicines, the myths, the languages, indeed the entire perceptions of reality of two peoples: Western and Indigenous. What becomes apparent is the amazing resemblance between Indigenous teachings and some of the insights that are emerging from modern science, a congruence that is as enlightening about the physical universe as it is about the circular evolution of man's understanding.

Cool, I'll give it a read when I'm something approaching sober and can actually process it

Was really into Taoism before I decided that the way forward was to climb into a bottle, and the real Tao, the way that is not the way (because if you can explain it, if you can put it in words, then it is not the way, it is not the Tao), the proper headfuck stuff that is the centre of the Tao is so similar to quantum physics it's kinda a bit scary. But that's deep physics, when you get right into proper deep physics, when the numbers run out, you're basically in the realms of SERIOUS philosophy, and my brain just doesn't work there, I'm not nearly clever enough. I wish I was clever enough cos it's fascinating, and occasionally I've kinda understood a teeny tiny little bit of it and on the few occasions I have, my word what a pure head rush, like being on acid

Sorry, rambling and talking shit yet again.

[Felix Dzerzhinsky]

ratdog, on 04 March 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

I`ve watched quite a lot of Susskind`s stuff on NOVA PBS, i expect you know but it`s the US version of Horizon but a bit more cutting edge imo, i`m really struggling with "branes" and the idea they come into contact now and again to create the next big bang, i`ve watched Fabric of the Cosmos, that`s pretty good for quantum string theory too, but i must admit i`m still learning a lot about the physics of the universe we can actually measure let alone multiverses ect i understand that quantum physics has never been proved wrong in it`s estimations so far so try to keep and open mind but some of the ideas from some of the physicists can seem just plain barmy at times


e2s, Nova are remaking Cosmos so i hope they will cover more of this is greater detail

Man it absolutely blows my mind that some folk can actually come up with these ideas and understand the deeper workings of the universe.

NOVA PBS is way cool and if they are remaking Cosmos that would be awesome

[PaulHackett]

Felix Dzerzhinsky, on 04 March 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

ratdog, on 04 March 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

I`ve watched quite a lot of Susskind`s stuff on NOVA PBS, i expect you know but it`s the US version of Horizon but a bit more cutting edge imo, i`m really struggling with "branes" and the idea they come into contact now and again to create the next big bang, i`ve watched Fabric of the Cosmos, that`s pretty good for quantum string theory too, but i must admit i`m still learning a lot about the physics of the universe we can actually measure let alone multiverses ect i understand that quantum physics has never been proved wrong in it`s estimations so far so try to keep and open mind but some of the ideas from some of the physicists can seem just plain barmy at times


e2s, Nova are remaking Cosmos so i hope they will cover more of this is greater detail

Man it absolutely blows my mind that some folk can actually come up with these ideas and understand the deeper workings of the universe.

NOVA PBS is way cool and if they are remaking Cosmos that would be awesome

You sound like a kid with a new toy on Christmas Day

That is the wonder of science

e no reps left

This post has been edited by PaulHackett: 05 March 2012 - 12:28 AM