[maccafogo]

Hi,

I have run 2 x 1000 watt air cooled reflectors in my room for years and now from only about 3 days ago the main circuit breaker has been tripping every 30 mins or so I replaced the ballasts thinking it was them, but that did not help, it literally flicked off as soon as the 2 lights where put on together?? I have adjustable watt ballasts so have put them down to 600 watts each totalling 1200 watts, which has cured the problem.
I have spurred off a double socket to my room on the upstairs ring main which I always thought might be to much power of one ring main but like I said, this has been fine for years and now its tripping??
I have a 80A RCCB and 30ma Trip circuit breaker which is the standard one for the house, and its the main one in the middle which always trips indicating a power surge, as when their was a fault in the wiring a few years ago, only the switch with the fault would trip, so it was easy to trace, but this is different? Even if the kettle gets switched on because its on the same ring main it trips it??
Does anyone know why this could suddenly happen after years of it being fine?? Can I upgrade the main circuit board with a higher rating trip fuse??

All advice greatly appreciated Thanks

Forgot to say I always use a 3000 watt contactor relay for the lights before anyone says that.

This post has been edited by maccafogo: 15 April 2012 - 09:36 AM

[greenforgo]

I know that when rewiring council installs round here they have rcbos installed on the cooker circuits rather than the normal mcbs.

The reason given was to try to minimise nuisance tripping from tenants cookers (which could sometimes be old)



So, just wondering if you got an electric cooker + whether or not its giving you any gyp

GfG

This post has been edited by greenforgo: 15 April 2012 - 09:39 AM

[Davey Jones]

So its the braker that trips and not the RCD is that right?, the breaker should be 32A

maccafogo, on 15 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Does anyone know why this could suddenly happen after years of it being fine??

I know the answer to this I have seen it a few times now and its one that catches a few people out

It could be because you have been running the breaker on its limit for a long time that the breaker can in some cases become sensitive and you end up with it tripping at the drop of a hat

One way to check if its this is to swap it for another 32A that hasnt been running under such stressfull circumstances, like swap upstairs sockets for downstairs and see if it does the same

It could well be something else like the voltage levels or supply parameters have changed but if it were me that would be my first port of call

You should post up a list of exactly what is running on this circuit and the wattage of each device dont miss anything out as you will be cheating your self


Do I win a mars bar now?



E2A

I cant work out if you mean the RCD is tripping or just the breaker, when you say the switch in the middle makes me think breaker?? but its unclear

This post has been edited by Davey Jones: 15 April 2012 - 10:12 AM

[Bhang Buddie]

+1 with Davey

[maccafogo]

greenforgo, on 15 April 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

I know that when rewiring council installs round here they have rcbos installed on the cooker circuits rather than the normal mcbs.

The reason given was to try to minimise nuisance tripping from tenants cookers (which could sometimes be old)



So, just wondering if you got an electric cooker + whether or not its giving you any gyp

GfG

Hey mate, thanks for posting Nah I have a gas cooker and have painstakingly traced the problem to my lights and fan only, and tried the fan on its own which is great its just the lights

Davey Jones, on 15 April 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

So its the braker that trips and not the RCD is that right?, the breaker should be 32A

maccafogo, on 15 April 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

Does anyone know why this could suddenly happen after years of it being fine??

I know the answer to this I have seen it a few times now and its one that catches a few people out

It could be because you have been running the breaker on its limit for a long time that the breaker can in some cases become sensitive and you end up with it tripping at the drop of a hat

One way to check if its this is to swap it for another 32A that hasnt been running under such stressfull circumstances, like swap upstairs sockets for downstairs and see if it does the same

It could well be something else like the voltage levels or supply parameters have changed but if it were me that would be my first port of call

You should post up a list of exactly what is running on this circuit and the wattage of each device dont miss anything out as you will be cheating your self


Do I win a mars bar now?



E2A

I cant work out if you mean the RCD is tripping or just the breaker, when you say the switch in the middle makes me think breaker?? but its unclear

Hey Davey Jones, thanks for this post

I have taken a picture of the box and its the grey breaker switch in the middle(in the crabtree writing bit Sorry I am no electrician but I am very competent at wiring switches lights etc general household DIY.

So shall I just replace the breaker fuse then? Is this easy to do?

I will try and get a list of all the wattages of the things running on the circuit but without wattages the room has 2 x 1000 watt lights, airforce 2 8" fan, TD Silent 8"fan, 5" system air fan, TD Silent 6" fan, air pump, tiny oil radiator, De'Longhi Slim DES 12 - Dehumidifier and a oscilating 16" fan. My second room is spurred off another double socket in another room but still on the same ring main (upstairs sockets) has a 1000 watt light, 6" system air fan, 6" rvk fan, 5" rvk fan, small oil radiator, mj1000 pump for drippers and a mj1000 pump for flooming the water.

I know this is a lot of stuff but the actual household items that run off the ring main is on minimally like Kettle, Washing Machine, Microwave, Oven but the fridge freezer which is on constantly. When the house I live in had a kitchen extension they used the upstairs sockets ring main for everything for some reason.
I know this is a lot of stuff but its all worked so well for years, but like you say its probably a warn out fuse

I will try and get the wattages together and post back

Thanks.

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This post has been edited by maccafogo: 15 April 2012 - 10:48 AM

[Davey Jones]

maccafogo, on 15 April 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

Hey Davey Jones, thanks for this post

I have taken a picture of the box and its the grey breaker switch in the middle(in the crabtree writing bit Sorry I am no electrician but I am very competent at wiring switches lights etc general household DIY.

So shall I just replace the breaker fuse then? Is this easy to do?

I will try and get a list of all the wattages of the things running on the circuit but without wattages the room has 2 x 1000 watt lights, airforce 2 8" fan, TD Silent 8"fan, 5" system air fan, TD Silent 6" fan, air pump, tiny oil radiator, De'Longhi Slim DES 12 - Dehumidifier and a oscilating 16" fan. My second room is spurred off another double socket in another room but still on the same ring main (upstairs sockets) has a 1000 watt light, 6" system air fan, 6" rvk fan, 5" rvk fan, small oil radiator, mj1000 pump for drippers and a mj1000 pump for flooming the water.

I know this is a lot of stuff but the actual household items that run off the ring main is on minimally like Kettle, Washing Machine, Microwave, Oven but the fridge freezer which is on constantly. When the house I live in had a kitchen extension they used the upstairs sockets ring main for everything for some reason.
I know this is a lot of stuff but its all worked so well for years, but like you say its probably a warn out fuse

I will try and get the wattages together and post back

Thanks.

Its overloaded mate and seriously overloaded at that, when you think a 1000W light draws 10A in steady state (thats without the startup surge) a kettle and a washing machine could both be up to about 13A each, fair enough they not on all the time some extract fans 8 inch can be upto 190-200W ish

But the bad news is its not a worn breaker as from your description its the RCD thats tripping, RCCB stands for residual current circuit breaker and it doesnt trip on overload just if a current flows down to earth which with a healthy system no current (well not much but thats another topic!)should flow to earth

I think you have an earth leakage problem which electronic (digital) ballasts do have a little and it could well be that its all adding up to tip you over your 30ma limit in fact I would now bet thats what it is, were the old ballasts before you replaced them also electronic ones as well?

The fridge freezer will leak a bit of current and before anyone says how did the kettle trip it that time as everyone knows heating elements leak nothing an electric arc is a type of leakage so when you turn on the switch you sometimes see a little blue flash in the switch and this is electrons going into the atmosphere (todays amazing fact!!!) and the RCD sees it as leakage thats how a blown light bulb can trip an RCD despite it having no earth to leak to!!!!

Its badly overloaded mate and replacing the RCD wont cure it its actually doing you a favour (doesn't seem like it I know) by working as required

You have to decrease the load on this circuit and get the leakage down, your kitchen should really have its own circuit IMO thats how its done these days with the heavy consumption but theres millions of kitchens tied into the downstairs ring main

Its hard for me to advise without seeing your house setup is it a split load board with 2 RCD's or just one RCD if you could take a pic of your whole fuse board if you dont know, if you lived over the road I would fly over and sort it for you

This post has been edited by Davey Jones: 15 April 2012 - 11:11 AM

[maccafogo]

Hey my friend, Nope my old ballasts are Maxibright magnetic ballasts, I upgraded to these adjusta watt digital ballasts about 11 months ago.

I will go and get a better pic for you mate, and really appreciate all the help

Better pics attached of the whole board, of which I only have one downstairs. The switch on the far right is the one that they are all fed off.

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This post has been edited by maccafogo: 15 April 2012 - 11:46 AM

[maccafogo]

Wan, on 15 April 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Yo buddy,
Another thing to check would be anywhere that water and electrics are close ie water pumps or damp sockets in your grooms.
It does sound like there is a huge load on 1 circuit tho and as davie said this is most likely the cause of the problems hes usualy right, you could try killing everything in the house and starting up the ballasts, this would show if the leakage is caused by just the ballasts then start connecting different items back onto the circuit to see when it trips.

Must be pulling yir hair out by now bro

Hey bro

Yeah have done that and when both ballasts are plugged in and turned on, its an instant trip it took me fooking ages turning everything off and on in the house in stages to find this problem.

I did the water and electric thing in my earlier days and thats not fun either but easily remedied by keeping all electrical sockets well out the way of reservoirs, which I have done now

I was planning on not using my second flowering room for a while anyway and just use the one 1000 watt flowering room, but I have ladies in their at week 6 so I want to go to week 9 preferably on 2000 watts, they are now on 600 watts each to stop the tripping.

[Davey Jones]

Didnt you say you upgraded the ballasts because of it tripping or did I read it wrong?, do the ballasts trip out the circuit all by themselves with everything else turned off?, i.e if you plug them into the other ring does that trip the RCD or is it only tripping with everything else plugged in at the same time?


It looks like the RCD is only protecting the upstairs and downstairs sockets

the cooker supply is 32A I know you have a gas cooker and the supply is probably to a cooker switch in the kitchen should you want to have an electric oven and its probably used to supply the ignition in the gas cooker (maybe), anyway the cooker isnt on an RCD which tells me this is not a TT installation (electrician talk) which has an earth rod. with a TT an RCD is an absolute essential part for safety which can not be avoided under any circumstances

They changed the wiring regs not very long ago so that everything in a house has to be on an RCD and did you know that there is literally millions of homes out there now that are deemed perfectly safe without an RCD I am talking none TT installations here like places with rewirable fuses are perfectly functional and safe without any of these new regs they changed (which is money making at its finest IMO)as soon as mr sparky comes along he needs to RCD protect his part which is when they start clagging little enclosures with breakers onto the existing its madness

What I am saying here is you could as an absolute last resort swap the upstairs sockets and the cooker so that you can finish your grow, the sockets would no longer be RCD protected but it was deemed safe not very long ago just not today, the installation wont comply with the latest wiring regs so any decent electrician worth his salt would never recommend you to do it (I wouldnt if at work) as he would be open to be shot if someone got a shock and got hurt

Growers arent complying with the law so the wiring regs are the least of their worries, as long as it isnt dangerous, its IMO much better to be RCD protected but like I say theres millions of homes with rewirables

You could finish the grow and then get the kitchen on its own supply, or pull in a new circuit to power your grow rooms which would probably be the way I would go with RCD protection theres a few options to do this thats another thread you have spare ways in the board

I am just trying to help by giving you ideas, as I would want my grow to finish paramount over satisfying to the T the wiring regs, I wouldnt risk a fire or killing someone to finish a grow as people are more important than plants (to me anyway!)



advice on the internet is always dodgy as these things should be looked at in the real world for instance maybe the guy who wired up that board was a total duck egg and it is a TT we have no way of knowing

[Tony Montana]

Top work Davey. I'm not a Sparky and know nothing of electrics but just thought I'd say spot on for your posts in this thread, goes to show how good this place really is

Hope you sort Maccafogo

Tony

[greenforgo]

Davey Jones, on 15 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

What I am saying here is you could as an absolute last resort swap the upstairs sockets and the cooker so that you can finish your grow, the sockets would no longer be RCD protected but it was deemed safe not very long ago just not today, the installation wont comply with the latest wiring regs so any decent electrician worth his salt would never recommend you to do it (I wouldnt if at work) as he would be open to be shot if someone got a shock and got hurt

In this last resort case, couldn't macca just swap the socket face(s) in his growroom for rcd protected ones?

A little expensive (screwfix got them at 20 quid a pop) but wouldn't it then meet regs?

Just Wondering

GfG

[maccafogo]

hXXp://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-30ma-double-pole-passive-twin-socket-rcd/83453?cm_mmc=Google-_-Datafeed- _-Electrical%20and%20Lighting-_-13A%2030mA%20Double%20Pole%20Passive%20Twin%20Socket%20RCD&gclid=CJ6kzpKSt68CFcwTfAod5xTEhg

Could I use these in the room? Would this stop it from tripping then? If that's the case I will replace all my twin sockets in the grow room with these if it will stop the tripping

[GROWER X]

What's to stop them tripping?

You need to sort the problem not make it trip elsewhere. That's my take on it

[greenforgo]

maccafogo, on 15 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

hXXp://www.screwfix.com/p/13a-30ma-double-pole-passive-twin-socket-rcd/83453?cm_mmc=Google-_-Datafeed- _-Electrical%20and%20Lighting-_-13A%2030mA%20Double%20Pole%20Passive%20Twin%20Socket%20RCD&gclid=CJ6kzpKSt68CFcwTfAod5xTEhg

Could I use these in the room? Would this stop it from tripping then? If that's the case I will replace all my twin sockets in the grow room with these if it will stop the tripping

I only suggested the socket face change, IF that it was decided to swap the upstairs sockets over to the cooker mcb as the cooker circuit is not rcd protected.

The rcd is there in case of a fault, it is supposed to trip out when it sees flow to earth (e.g. during a person having an electric shock)



edit: actually thinking about it, wouldn't it be better to just get a rcbo (if you can get one to fit these boards) for upstairs ring + replace?

This post has been edited by greenforgo: 15 April 2012 - 03:56 PM

[Davey Jones]

Tony Montana, on 15 April 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Top work Davey. I'm not a Sparky and know nothing of electrics but just thought I'd say spot on for your posts in this thread, goes to show how good this place really is

Hope you sort Maccafogo

Tony

Thanks Tony its no biggee really though, theres a few good electrical folk round here if it wasnt me I am sure someone else would do just the same

But yeah this place is good for all kinds of help, I have had help with loads of stuff (aside from growing) from shares to advanced math and simulations (Strawberry I salute you )

greenforgo, on 15 April 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

In this last resort case, couldn't macca just swap the socket face(s) in his growroom for rcd protected ones?

A little expensive (screwfix got them at 20 quid a pop) but wouldn't it then meet regs?

Just Wondering

GfG

Putting those sockets on would then mean he had RCD protection which is better more safe etc, thing is those sockets only protect whatever is plugged into the socket and the regs say its the cables that need RCD protecting as well its for when people like my dad hang a picture and hit the cables in the wall so those sockets wouldnt give compliance but are an improvement no doubt, in fact IMO everything in a grow room should be on an RCD and a plug in RCD is sufficient

maccafogo, on 15 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

Could I use these in the room? Would this stop it from tripping then? If that's the case I will replace all my twin sockets in the grow room with these if it will stop the tripping

It wont stop the tripping as you would still have the same RCD in the board with the same leakage just you would have two RCD's in series which isnt going to do anything constructive

GROWER X, on 15 April 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:

What's to stop them tripping?

You need to sort the problem not make it trip elsewhere. That's my take on it

It would still trip in the same place!!!!!, he could lose the RCD in the board and use them as personal protection but it still wont comply with the wiring regulations though as the cables wont be on an RCD just like his cooker and lights arent at the minute but they complied when they were installed and are perfectly fine and safe, its when mr spark comes in to do new work his addition has to be up to the new regs as long as it is he can sign it all off as safe as houses, does it seem stupid to you? me too!

This post has been edited by Davey Jones: 15 April 2012 - 04:05 PM