[buggsy]

Thank you everyone who has posted. each view has been interesting and greatly informative.

got a bit of time off work now, so nice to be able to do the things i want and generally keep busy. Iv found out that i have a fantastic support group in both friends and family who have helped me talk through my problems for the first ttime in years.

off to see the gp on wed. ill update then most likely and see how i for from there. its nice to feel even just a bit of the weight lifted from my shoulders for a change.

Buggsy

[vape_ninja]

rune, on 16 April 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Jamesbong, on 15 April 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

On another note, they've made him stupidly tolerant to MDMA so keep away from that unless you want to waste some money.

SSRIs are known to stop MDMA from working. This is due to the fact that they are both involved with Serotonin ( i won't go into the minute details here ;-) ). Chasing a buzz with MDMA whilst on SSRIs could be dangerous as it could cause you to consume way over the safe amount of MDMA.

If you're on SSRIs, best to stay off of MDMA.

In fact, it's a good idea to give MDMA a break anyway if you're suffering from depression.


However, 5-HTP is a natural Serotonin precursor which can also can enhance, not destroy the MDMA buzz and also protect the brain from some of the harmful effects of MDMA. There's plenty of info online.

rune

Sorry i have to disagree, L-Tryptophan is the superior supplement, not 5-htp.
Yes Mdma is a potent serotonin releaser and if used should only actually be used once every 90 days. (for safety)

The reason why i say L-Tryptophan is superior is that the body sees it as less 'toxic'
Even better is the fact that you can get it just by eating certain foods.

Anti depressants are not good news really. They are also neurotoxic.
They are good in the case of someone severely suicidal as they are needed then, and neurotoxicity is disregarded as a persons life is at stake.

However, other countries such as germany prescribe stuff like St Johns Wort first of all.
The high Tryptophan diet i recommended would be another measure.
I don't ever want to end up on anti depressants ever again, i just cant hack the side effects.

This post has been edited by vape_ninja: 16 April 2012 - 05:28 PM

[Chris P]

vape_ninja, on 16 April 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Sorry i have to disagree, L-Tryptophan is the superior supplement, not 5-htp.
Yes Mdma is a potent serotonin releaser and if used should only actually be used once every 90 days. (for safety)

The reason why i say L-Tryptophan is superior is that the body sees it as less 'toxic'
Even better is the fact that you can get it just by eating certain foods.

Anti depressants are not good news really. They are also neurotoxic.
They are good in the case of someone severely suicidal as they are needed then, and neurotoxicity is disregarded as a persons life is at stake.

However, other countries such as germany prescribe stuff like St Johns Wort first of all.
The high Tryptophan diet i recommended would be another measure.
I don't ever want to end up on anti depressants ever again, i just cant hack the side effects.

Sorry, but I disagree with most of what you have just said.

I would agree with you on using other methods (wherever possible), such as a good diet, exercise, gardening, pets as therapy, etc.

I have been on and off a lot of different anti-depressants over the years. I have been off them now for about the last year. They have had their uses but I did find they caused a kind of flat-lining of emotions and would rather just cope without them (and just use Cannabis).

You say they are good for people who are very suicidal so I thought I'd point out that their use can also result in people committing suicide.

Vitamin B6 is also required for the conversion of 5-HTP to 5-HT (serotonin).

Cannabis does slightly work against SSRI's.

It is interesting that an SSRI increases Serotonin levels in the brain very quickly, but their anti-depressant effect takes about 6 weeks. This is likely because they work via upregulation of other neural pathways via 5HT-C3 (I think) causing an increase in dopamine.

[cf]

The biggest problem with ad's and the psychiatric meds is the time they take to work
Early intervention has been shown to be critical for the long term outcome for people who are prescribed these meds.

If you get the right drug (for you ) before your condition deteriorates then you have a much better chance of successful recovery. Trouble is like with my experience it took 5 months to get on board ,find out they wernt for me and then get off them .....reducing was very unpleasant .
My GP wanted to.put me on something else straight away , I read up on this med venlafaxine iirc and there were loads of people stuck.on them ,not getting on with them , but unable to reduce because of the horrendous withdrawal symptoms .
Pharmaceutical companies don't like #withdrawal# because it goes hand in hand with #addiction# , they try to use the term discontinuation syndrome , but to the patient its semantics because you have a monkey on your back either way.

I worked in a residential unit for people.with enduring mental health problems for the NHS, many of the patients in my opinion had not been diagnosed correctly at the outset or had been through an initial period of two or three years of trying to.find the appropriate medication by which time their minds were so.all over the place that recovery was looking less and less likely ,all of them were on more than one type.of drug ,some as many as 5 psych drugs plus more medication to.counter the physical side effects of the major tranquilizers and anti psychotics.
Of course some peoples lives were much improved by their medication , clozaril has revolutionized the quality of.life for people with schizophrenia .Lithium again can be a wonder drug for.some folks .

Why am telling you this ? Just to make people aware that mental health services do get things wrong , spending a long time finding effective meds can be very harmful ,with serious conditions then it can't perhaps be avoided but I have worked with young men and women who have engaged with services for quite moderate conditions ,perhaps they haven't been very bright or self aware or have had no support to.speak of , but they have got entangled in the system and have become permanently and completely disabled by the system that they turned to for help.

My doc was keen to get me on a second AD, but I felt like I had wasted 5 months of my life feeling shit on citalopram and was so worried that I wouldn't get on with the new med I just decided that I would try to.tough it out without.
My GP offered over the phone counselling as the alternative ....that didn't work so I'm on my own with my black dog and we are getting on much better these days .

[rune]

vape_ninja, on 16 April 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Sorry i have to disagree, L-Tryptophan is the superior supplement, not 5-htp.
Yes Mdma is a potent serotonin releaser and if used should only actually be used once every 90 days. (for safety)

The reason why i say L-Tryptophan is superior is that the body sees it as less 'toxic'
Even better is the fact that you can get it just by eating certain foods.

Anti depressants are not good news really. They are also neurotoxic.
They are good in the case of someone severely suicidal as they are needed then, and neurotoxicity is disregarded as a persons life is at stake.

However, other countries such as germany prescribe stuff like St Johns Wort first of all.
The high Tryptophan diet i recommended would be another measure.
I don't ever want to end up on anti depressants ever again, i just cant hack the side effects.

I don't think I ever said 5HTP was superior to anything. My statement was about the effect of 5HTP as a serotonin precursor and the beneficial effects it can have. I did not go as far saying it should specifically be taken as a suplement, although this is indeeed one route and one that I have used in the past. However, I cannot take it regularly as I am sensitive to sustained raised levels of Serotonin. I react badly to SSRIs, St Johns Wort and 5-HTP (if taken as a sustained dose) although the 5-HTP has the least adverse effects for me. I find if I take 5-HTP sporadically when I feel the need (i.e. not evey day, or even every week or month) for me I find a benefit from it. I occasionally take it for a few days then stop. This works for me personally. Interestingly, this bad reaction SSRIs and St John's Wort seems to have a genetic factor; my mother reacts in exactly the same way.

As you know, there is are series of reactions that end in the production of Serotonin. L-Tryptophan -> 5-HTP -> Serotonin. I would never argue against a diet naturally high in Tryptophan. Whatever works for you. Many people beleive that all suplements are not the best way to boost levels of things and that eating the right diet is the way forward. I really can't argue with that view.

Each to their own,


rune

[Flobalobalobalot]

“Exploring the relationships between medication and veteran suicide.”

"The studies in this section confirm that the risk of antidepressant suicidality is not limited to children, youth, and young adults, but encompasses all ages."

B. Antidepressant-Induced Mania in Adults

A considerable body of research demonstrates that the newer antidepressants frequently cause mania in varying degrees. Mania is associated with loss of impulse control, violence and suicide.

Preda et al. (2001) found that 8.1 percent of adult psychiatric hospital admissions could be attributed to antidepressant-induced mania and/or psychosis. Morishita and Arita (2003) found that 8.6 percent of patients treated with Paxil developed hypomania or mania. Howland (1996) found a 6 percent rate of SSRI-induced mania, mostly severe. Ebert et al. (1997) found a 17 percent rate of hypomania, some suicidal or dangerous. Martin et al. (2004) used a national database of more than 7 million privately insured individuals, aged 5-29 years, to find new diagnoses of bipolar illness made in association of antidepressant treatment. They found a statistically significant correlation between exposure to antidepressants and a subsequent diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Individual who already have a tendency to become manic have vastly increased risk of mania when exposed to SSRI antidepressants (Henry et al., 2001; Ghaemi et al., 2000) with rates that exceed 20 percent.

The SSRI antidepressants pose a very serious, indeed an extreme, risk of causing mania in patients with and without a prior history of manic-like symptoms. This alone should contraindicate their use among active duty soldiers.

C. Antidepressant-Induced Aggression in Adults

Studies of antidepressant-induced mania often cite cases of violence. Studies also find an increased rate of hostility for children and adults taken Paxil (Healy et al, 2006, using data from GlaxoSmithKline, 2006a). Healy (2000) gave Zoloft to 20 volunteers, two of whom became aggressive and suicidal. The FDA conducted an epidemiological study comparing fluoxetine to trazodone in regard to spontaneous reports concerning hostility and intentional injury and found increased hostility on Prozac. (Food and Drug Administration, 1991). In a phone survey of pharmacy patients newer and older antidepressants, Fisher et al. (1993) found Prozac caused a higher incidence of psychotic aggression, and suicidality.



hXXp://www.veterans.house.gov/hearings/Testimony.aspx?TID=56906&Newsid=525&Name=%20Peter%20R. %20Breggin,%20M.D .


I am Peter R. Breggin, MD, a psychiatrist in private practice in Washington, DC, for several decades and now in Ithaca, New York. In the early 1990s I became the first physician to speak and write extensively about the new antidepressants causing violence, suicide and other abnormal behavioral reactions. I became the scientific expert for more than one hundred combined cases against Eli Lilly concerning Prozac-induced violence and suicide, and wrote many related books and scientific articles. In 2004 the FDA finally upgraded the warnings for all antidepressant drugs. The FDA’s language was virtually borrowed from one of my scientific publications (Breggin, 2003), which the agency had provided to each member of its review committee.

My conclusions in this testimony are based on dozens of citations listed in the scientific paper I have written specifically for this hearing, “Antidepressant-Induced Suicide and Violence: Risks for Military Personnel.” My conclusions are further based on hundreds of scientific citations in my published papers and in chapters 6 and 7 of my 2008 medical book, Brain-Disabling Treatments in Psychiatry, Second Edition (New York: Springer Publishing Company.

My other recent book, Medication Madness (2008, New York: St. Martin’s Press) presents more than 50 cases in which I have personally evaluated the medical and police records, and interviewed perpetrators and survivors. Based on voluminous scientific data and clinical experience, individuals with no prior tendencies toward suicide, violence or mania can be driven into these states by antidepressants.

In 2004 the FDA required the antidepressant manufacturers to review their previous clinical trials in regard to suicidality. The FDA concluded that the newer antidepressants double the rate of suicidal thoughts and behaviors in children, youth, and young adults up to age 24. The actual rates will be much more than doubled in routine clinical practice in the military and elsewhere. In routine practice the medications are administered for longer periods of time than a mere few weeks, monitoring is much more casual, drug cocktails are common, and suicidal and more disturbed patients are not excluded as they were in the clinical trials.

The FDA’s new warnings provide a consensus of FDA-appointed experts. For convenience, I will cite the October 2008 FDA-approved label for Zoloft. The warnings are similar or identical to the other antidepressants. The Zoloft label begins at the top with the following Black Box bold warning:
Suicidality and Antidepressant Drugs

Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders. Anyone considering the use of Zoloft or any other antidepressant in a child, adolescent, or young adult must balance this risk with the clinical need. …


The black box is followed by a lengthy warning section ominously entitled Clinical Worsening and Suicide Risk. It states:


The following symptoms, anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor restlessness), hypomania, and mania, have been reported in adult and pediatric patients being treated with antidepressants for major depressive disorder as well as for other indications, both psychiatric and nonpsychiatric.


For emphasis, the FDA repeats this array of dangerous symptoms throughout the label. Note the specific mention of irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, and impulsivity­a prescription for violence as well as suicide, especially in already stressed and heavily armed soldiers.

Federal regulations require that these warnings must be based on “reasonable evidence of a causal association with a drug.”

The FDA-approved label concludes with a Medication Guide that prescribers are advised to give and discuss with patients and their families. The guide lists the following risks associated with the drugs.
thoughts about suicide or dying
attempts to commit suicide
new or worse depression
new or worse anxiety
feeling very agitated or restless
panic attacks
trouble sleeping (insomnia)
new or worse irritability
acting aggressive, being angry, or violent
acting on dangerous impulses
an extreme increase in activity and talking (mania)
other unusual changes in behavior or mood

Meanwhile, the efficacy of these drugs is in doubt for both children and adults. Under FDA regulations, pharmaceutical companies can cherry pick their studies to find only two that show minimal effectiveness. However, antidepressants do not prove effective compared to placebo when all controlled clinical trials conducted for the FDA are included in a meta-analysis.

As you may discover today, medical and psychiatric organizations that rely very heavily on financial support from the pharmaceutical industry have unconscionably resisted and even dismissed the FDA’s warnings, and all the science behind them.

In conclusion, there is overwhelming evidence that the newer antidepressants commonly prescribed in the military can cause or worsen suicidality, aggression, and other dangerous mental states. There is a strong probability that the documented increase in suicides in the military, as well as any increase in random violence among soldiers, is caused or exacerbated by the widespread prescription of antidepressant medication.

Little will be lost and much will be gained by curtailing the prescription of antidepressants in the military. The military instead should rely upon the newly developed psychological and educational programs described by Dr. Bart Billings at today’s hearing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Antidepressant-Induced Suicide and Violence: Risks for Military Personnel

by Peter R. Breggin, M.D.[*]


I. Introduction

This study focuses on evidence that antidepressants frequently cause suicide, violence and manic-like symptoms of over-stimulation­and therefore present a serious hazard when given to military personnel. Research involving children will be included, because they commonly involve youth up to age 17 or 18 and because medication risks for all age groups often show up first or most obviously among children.

II. Research Leads to FDA Label Changes for the Newer Antidepressants

A. FDA Label Changes

Because of concerns about reported cases of suicide in association with the newer antidepressants, the FDA required a re-evaluation of all controlled clinical trials conducted on children and youth during the FDA approval process (Hammad et al., 2006). The meta-analysis found that the risk of suicidal ideation and behaviors was doubled for children and youth taking the antidepressants compared to placebo (Food and Drug Administration, October 15, 2004a). Additional FDA-mandated studies extended the suicide warning to young adults age 18-24­the precise age of many soldiers..

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) antidepressants were re-evaluated including fluoxetine (Prozac), fluvoxamine (Luvox), paroxetine (Paxil), sertraline (Zoloft), citalopram (Celexa) and escitalopram (Lexapro). In reports issued by the FDA (e.g., Food and Drug Administration, March 22, 2004d) four other potentially stimulating antidepressants were found to produce similar adverse behavioral and mental effects and were included in the group: venlafaxine (Effexor), mirtazapine (Remeron), bupropion (Wellbutrin or Zyban) and nefazodone (Serzone).

The following excerpts are taken from the Zoloft (sertraline) label as of October 2008. Identical or nearly identical warnings and information can be found in all antidepressants labels, most of which appear in the Physicians’ Desk Reference. A Black Box at the top of the label warns about the increased risk of suicidal behavior in children and youth, and also young adults ages 18-24, which includes many young soldiers.

The Zoloft label begins with the following Black Box Warning:[†]
Suicidality and Antidepressant Drugs

Antidepressants increased the risk compared to placebo of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults in short-term studies of major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders. Anyone considering the use of Zoloft or any other antidepressant in a child, adolescent, or young adult must balance this risk with the clinical need. …

The Black Box Warning provides additional information with an elaborate WARNINGS section subtitled, Clinical Worsening and Suicide Risk, which contains the following statement:


Pooled analyses of short-term placebo-controlled trials of antidepressant drugs (SSRIs and others) showed that these drugs increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior (suicidality) in children, adolescents, and young adults (ages 18-24) with major depressive disorder (MDD) and other psychiatric disorders.


This section continues with a specific warning about the increased risk of medication-induced suicidality during “the initial few months of a course of drug therapy, or at times of doses changes, either increases or decreases.” It then describes an activation or stimulant-like array of adverse effects:


The following symptoms, anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor restlessness), hypomania, and mania, have been reported in adult and pediatric patients being treated with antidepressants for major depressive disorder as well as for other indications, both psychiatric and nonpsychiatric.


Note the specific mention of “irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity”­a virtual prescription for causing suicide and violence, especially in an already stressed individuals, including soldiers. In a rare display of emphasis by the FDA, this array of dangerous symptoms is described several times more in the label.

Under the heading Information for Patients the label addresses the importance of informing patients about all of these risks. The probability that these warnings will be given to military personnel is not high, and of course their families will often be unavailable to monitor them.

A Medication Guide for all age groups appears at the end of the label. The label states, “The prescriber or health professional should instruct patients, their families, and their caregivers to read the Medication Guide and should assist them in understanding its contents.” The Medication Guide lists the following risks associated with the drugs.
thoughts about suicide or dying
attempts to commit suicide
new or worse depression
new or worse anxiety
feeling very agitated or restless
panic attacks
trouble sleeping (insomnia)
new or worse irritability
acting aggressive, being angry, or violent
acting on dangerous impulses
an extreme increase in activity and talking (mania)
other unusual changes in behavior or mood

Once again note the array of dangerous adverse reactions, including not only suicide but many emotional and behavior reactions that would be especially hazardous in a soldier, including, “feeling very agitated or restless,” “new or worse irritability,” “acting aggressive, being angry, or violent,” and “acting on dangerous impulses “

II. Overview of Scientific Studies

A. Antidepressant-Induced Suicidality in Children and Adults

In addition to the studies done under the auspices of the FDA (above), a large body of research confirms an increased risk of suicidality in children and adults (of all ages) when taking antidepressants. Aursnes et al. (2005) located 16 placebo-controlled clinical trials in which Paxil had been randomized against placebo and found increased suicidal behavior. Fergusson et al. (2005) searched the adult literature and found 702 randomized clinical trials (87,650 patients) and found a significant increase in suicidality on antidepressants. Donovan et al. (1999) in a large British study involving 222 suicides found a higher rate of suicide on patients treated with the newer antidepressants. Donovan et al. (2000) examined 2776 consecutive cases of deliberate self-harm in individuals age seventeen and older seen at the emergency department of a British infirmary. Again, suicide attempt rates were higher among patients treated with newer antidepressants. Jick et al. (1995) conducted an epidemiological study in the United Kingdom involving 172,598 adult patients and Prozac was associated with more suicides than the older antidepressants. Frankenfield et al. (1994) studied coroner’s cases in Maryland and found the suicides were more violent in patients taking Prozac compared to older antidepressants.

GlaxoSmithKline (2006) conducted a new meta-analysis of all of its adult trials of Paxil and found an increased rate of suicidality in depressed patients of all ages. .

A study of 1,255 suicides in 2006 in Sweden (95 percent of all suicides in the country) reported that 32 percent of Scandinavian men and 52 percent of Scandinavian women filled a prescription for antidepressants in the 180 days prior to suicide ((Ljung et al., 2009). A retrospective study examined the suicide rates among 887,859 VA patients treated for depression and found that “completed suicide rates were approximately twice the base rate following antidepressant starts in VA clinical settings” (Valenstein et al., 2009).

Juurlink et al. (2006) reviewed more than 1,000 cases of actual suicides in the elderly and found that during the first month of treatment the SSRI antidepressants were associated with nearly a five-fold higher risk compared to other antidepressants. Fisher, Kent and Bryant (1995) conducted a phone survey of pharmacy patients taking various antidepressants and found a higher rate of suicidality on SSRIs.

The studies in this section confirm that the risk of antidepressant suicidality is not limited to children, youth, and young adults, but encompasses all ages.

B. Antidepressant-Induced Mania in Adults

A considerable body of research demonstrates that the newer antidepressants frequently cause mania in varying degrees. Mania is associated with loss of impulse control, violence and suicide.

Preda et al. (2001) found that 8.1 percent of adult psychiatric hospital admissions could be attributed to antidepressant-induced mania and/or psychosis. Morishita and Arita (2003) found that 8.6 percent of patients treated with Paxil developed hypomania or mania. Howland (1996) found a 6 percent rate of SSRI-induced mania, mostly severe. Ebert et al. (1997) found a 17 percent rate of hypomania, some suicidal or dangerous. Martin et al. (2004) used a national database of more than 7 million privately insured individuals, aged 5-29 years, to find new diagnoses of bipolar illness made in association of antidepressant treatment. They found a statistically significant correlation between exposure to antidepressants and a subsequent diagnosis of bipolar disorder. Individual who already have a tendency to become manic have vastly increased risk of mania when exposed to SSRI antidepressants (Henry et al., 2001; Ghaemi et al., 2000) with rates that exceed 20 percent.

The SSRI antidepressants pose a very serious, indeed an extreme, risk of causing mania in patients with and without a prior history of manic-like symptoms. This alone should contraindicate their use among active duty soldiers.

C. Antidepressant-Induced Aggression in Adults

Studies of antidepressant-induced mania often cite cases of violence. Studies also find an increased rate of hostility for children and adults taken Paxil (Healy et al, 2006, using data from GlaxoSmithKline, 2006a). Healy (2000) gave Zoloft to 20 volunteers, two of whom became aggressive and suicidal. The FDA conducted an epidemiological study comparing fluoxetine to trazodone in regard to spontaneous reports concerning hostility and intentional injury and found increased hostility on Prozac. (Food and Drug Administration, 1991). In a phone survey of pharmacy patients newer and older antidepressants, Fisher et al. (1993) found Prozac caused a higher incidence of psychotic aggression, and suicidality.

D. A Broad Range of Adverse Behavioral Effects in Children and Youth

Researchers at Clinical and Research Program in Pediatric Psychopharmacology at the Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School systematically evaluated 82 charts of children and adolescents treated with SSRIs for depressive or OCD symptoms over a mean period of 26.9 months (Wilens et al., 2003). Psychiatric Adverse Events (PAEs) were found in 22 percent, “most commonly related to disturbances in mood.” Remarkably, “Re-exposure to an SSRI resulted in another PAE in 44 percent (n=13) of the group.” Of the 82 children, 21 percent developed mood disorders, including 15 percent who became irritable, 10 percent who became anxious, 9 percent who became depressed, and 6 percent who became manic. In addition, 4 percent of the children became aggressive. Sleep disorders afflicted 35 percent of the children, including 23 percent drowsy and 17 percent insomnia. Finally, 10 percent became psychotic!

Go et al. (1998) reviewed the cases of 40 youths, ages 12-18, treated with antidepressants for OCD. Thirty percent (6 of 20) developed hypomanic or manic symptoms. Jain et al. (1992) made a retrospective examination of the medical charts of children and young men age 9-18 and found that 23 percent of fluoxetine-treated young people developed mania or manic-like symptoms. Another 19 percent developed drug-induced hostility and aggression.

A study 8-16 year old in a university clinic found that 50 percent developed two or more abnormal behavioral reactions to fluoxetine, including aggression, loss of impulse control, agitation, and manic-like symptoms (Riddle et al, 1990/1991). A second research study found that 14 percent 10-17 year olds became aggressive and even violent while taking fluoxetine (King, et al., 1991). A controlled clinical trial found that fluoxetine caused a 6 percent rate of mania in depressed children and youngsters age 7-17 (Emslie et al..1997). As mentioned, Martin et al. (2004) found that exposure to antidepressants increases the probability of a subsequent diagnosis of bipolar disorder in 5-29 year olds.

In combination with the FDA’s suicide warnings in regard to children, youth, and young adults, the studies in this section should lead to the discontinuation of antidepressants in the treatment of children and youth.

V. Determining Causation

According to the Code of Federal Regulations, WARNINGS are based on at least “reasonable evidence” for causation. (Code…, 2008). In a Talk Paper, the FDA also confirmed that the array of stimulant-like or activation symptoms associated with the antidepressants was in fact caused by the drugs. The FDA referred to “certain behaviors known to be associated with these drugs, such as anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, impulsivity, akathisia (severe restlessness), hypomania, and mania…” (FDA, 2004d, p. 1, emphasis added). That these observations appear in the WARNINGS section confirms that “reasonable evidence” of causality because this is the standard set for WARNINGS by the Code of Federal Regulations (2008).

VI. Clinical Cases

In Medication Madness (2008a), I have evaluated more than fifty cases of violence, suicide, mania and crime induced by psychiatric medications, especially the newer antidepressants (Breggin, 2008a). The individuals had never before been suicidal, violent or criminal, and recidivism was zero when the medications were stopped.

VII. Lack of Efficacy

To obtain FDA-approval, pharmaceutical companies can cherry pick their studies to find two that show effectiveness. However, when all adult controlled clinical trials, including the unsuccessful ones, are pooled in a meta-analysis, antidepressants do not prove effective (Kirsch et al., 2008; Moncrief and Kirsch, 2005). Meanwhile, studies of children and youth almost uniformly fail to show effectiveness (Whittington et al., 2004, ages 5-18; Jureidini et al., 2004, Tonkin and Jureidini, 2005).

VIII. Conclusion

There is overwhelming evidence that the SSRIs and other stimulating antidepressants cause suicidality and aggression, sometimes as an aspect of highly dangerous states of mania. All ages are susceptible but young adults aged 18-24 (the age of many soldiers) are especially at risk for antidepressant-induced suicidality. There is a strong probability that increasing suicide and violence rates among active duty soldiers are in part caused or exacerbated by the widespread prescription of antidepressant medication. Antidepressants should be avoided in the treatment of military personnel.

Little will be lost and much will be gained by stopping the prescription of antidepressants to military personnel. The military should rely upon newly developing psychological and educational programs described by Dr. Bart Billings at today’s panel.

For the bibliography and more detailed explanations, see the full-length paper.

[*] Peter R. Breggin, M.D., 101 East State Street, Ithaca, New York 14850. Phone 607-272 5328. www.breggin.com . This article was written specifically for the Committee on Veterans’ Affairs of the U. S. House of Representatives hearings of February 24, 2010 entitled “Exploring the relationships between medication and veteran suicide.”

[doris]

Hi there
I'm glad to read that you are feeling a little better. I 've been on antidepressants for many years and really regret it. They are only marginally more effective than the placebo in trials and have awful withdrawal effects. As well as all the things you have read from other posters about suicide risk and self harm, they are also believed to cause increased brain cell proliferation (an overgrowth of cells). This for me is the worst part as I've just been diagnosed with a brain tumour. Trying to come off them now, reducing dose and feel like shit. They never helped my depression, what helped was making some hard decisions about my life and making the necessary changes.
The key to recover is confronting the things which you know are making you unhappy and changing them if you can (sorry if this does not apply to your situation, just mentioning it because it was a major factor for me). Diet and exercise are also very important. I'd recommend a book called Food is better medicine than drugs - Patrick Holford & Jeremy Burne.
I hope this helps in some way.
xxx

[bhudika]

get yourself a copy of " the cult of pharmacology" , ssri's dont work, its a time proven fact, they are no better than a placebo as far as effectivness goes, the companies that marketed them are all getting roasted and sued, you are far more likley to top yourself or somebody else when taking an ssri, its not a conspiracy theory either, the book contains numerous cases that prove the point, please dont take the word of some internet stranger about it either, get the book and educate yourself then change your life for the better, peace and love

[Irrelevant]

After having posted someone elses findings about cbd and ingestion , I've come to the conslusion that maybe some facts aren't as clear as others..
Next to that I try to keep an open mind...

About my source : it's a tough thing , but I can't tell who it was that told me CBD is not digestible..
So no source= no proof.
I must accept this.

[buggsy]

doris, on 19 April 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

Hi there
I'm glad to read that you are feeling a little better. I 've been on antidepressants for many years and really regret it. They are only marginally more effective than the placebo in trials and have awful withdrawal effects. As well as all the things you have read from other posters about suicide risk and self harm, they are also believed to cause increased brain cell proliferation (an overgrowth of cells). This for me is the worst part as I've just been diagnosed with a brain tumour. Trying to come off them now, reducing dose and feel like shit. They never helped my depression, what helped was making some hard decisions about my life and making the necessary changes.
The key to recover is confronting the things which you know are making you unhappy and changing them if you can (sorry if this does not apply to your situation, just mentioning it because it was a major factor for me). Diet and exercise are also very important. I'd recommend a book called Food is better medicine than drugs - Patrick Holford & Jeremy Burne.
I hope this helps in some way.
xxx

cheers for the comment. i fully understand the fact that i need to confront the problems which lead me to this. the majority of it i believe to be anxiety and pressure of things that i have been through just need to learn to block these things out, as they really aren't a problem any longer .

im now on my fifth day of taking the medication. have to say im not enjoying the side effects . although they are not as pronounced as others have experienced. lots of light headed and tingle sensations. which seem to kick in a few hrs after taking the meds.

in myself i am feeling quite good, but i attribute that mainly to having a nice week off work and seeing lots of people, and going to a few gigs. and just generally keeping busy..

if the side effects dont calm down id be surprised if i stay on them longer than a month as i really don't like driving feeling like this. feel a bit edgy..

buggsy

[boyzey1]

Psycho-tik, on 15 April 2012 - 12:40 PM, said:

HI there,
I have also had citalopram as a medication .
Strains high in CBD allowed me to stave off the citalopram.
Eventually my medication became cannabis again for a while.
Looking back it seems as if smoking strains high in CBD in combination with slowly (!) weening of the cita's causes a slow but long term change in my case.

I scraped of a tiny bit each time i had to ingest the pill.
eventually i was ingesting a crumbsized bit and quit.
The 3 days after the last pill i felt a bit edgy and slept/stayed in bed till it was over.

{ sometimes i read on this board that strains hiigh in CBD are mostly indica. This is not the case. It seems as if the highest cbd levels are found in sativas and it's hybrid offsprings. Even higher levels of CBD can be found in strains crossed with OTTO. Using a male hemp plant while crossing with any high THC strain female will eventually yield strains with exceptionally high CBD levels.
CBD can't be absorbed by ingestion. Vapourizing or smoking are the only routes for CBD. }

That specific period of time in wich i stopped using citalopram I smoked a rough 3 grams of high CBD weed a day.

You tookthe wordsout of my mouth. C.B.D is a wonder cannabinoid for deppression and anxiety. I have O.C.D/O.C.P.D and have medicated for years and trying to create my own strains for mainly C.B.D content. I take ssri's everyday called paroxotine and not smoking causes me more anxiety issues . I spoke tothe guy fromsweet seeds through the messenger and he said they created there seeds with cbd in mind. so there strains might help with your issues.
if you ever want more info pmme and iltalkit through with you.Iknow what its like to be feeling stuck and talking really helps.

bee

[camerasforears]

rune, on 16 April 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Jamesbong, on 15 April 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

On another note, they've made him stupidly tolerant to MDMA so keep away from that unless you want to waste some money.

SSRIs are known to stop MDMA from working. This is due to the fact that they are both involved with Serotonin ( i won't go into the minute details here ;-) ). Chasing a buzz with MDMA whilst on SSRIs could be dangerous as it could cause you to consume way over the safe amount of MDMA.

If you're on SSRIs, best to stay off of MDMA.

In fact, it's a good idea to give MDMA a break anyway if you're suffering from depression.


However, 5-HTP is a natural Serotonin precursor which can also can enhance, not destroy the MDMA buzz and also protect the brain from some of the harmful effects of MDMA. There's plenty of info online.

rune

In fact there is not a huge interaction between SSRI's and mdma.

The real dangers are MAOI (another family of antidepressants) with any sort of mdma or analogue. This is called serotonin syndrome. As this is well known in the medical community they are not prescribed very much unless as an anti-psychotic. SSRI's have pretty much replaced them on the market due to this safety issue.

[boyzey1]

camerasforears, on 23 April 2012 - 02:59 AM, said:

rune, on 16 April 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Jamesbong, on 15 April 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

On another note, they've made him stupidly tolerant to MDMA so keep away from that unless you want to waste some money.

SSRIs are known to stop MDMA from working. This is due to the fact that they are both involved with Serotonin ( i won't go into the minute details here ;-) ). Chasing a buzz with MDMA whilst on SSRIs could be dangerous as it could cause you to consume way over the safe amount of MDMA.

If you're on SSRIs, best to stay off of MDMA.

In fact, it's a good idea to give MDMA a break anyway if you're suffering from depression.


However, 5-HTP is a natural Serotonin precursor which can also can enhance, not destroy the MDMA buzz and also protect the brain from some of the harmful effects of MDMA. There's plenty of info online.

rune

In fact there is not a huge interaction between SSRI's and mdma.

The real dangers are MAOI (another family of antidepressants) with any sort of mdma or analogue. This is called serotonin syndrome. As this is well known in the medical community they are not prescribed very much unless as an anti-psychotic. SSRI's have pretty much replaced them on the market due to this safety issue.

hi there can I askwith out being rude how you got to the conclusion that mdma and ssri's. I have had seretonion syndrome and was from interaction between mdma and paroxetinewhich is an ssri. the interaction between the 2 depends person to person. even cocaine can tip the wrong person on ssri's. I aggree about maoi's but any thing that induces the rapid use off seretonin should be not be taken within 36 hoursof your tablets imo. even certain herbs like st johns wort ,ginseng x can bean overload on the brain when on this medication.
To be honest If you have mentalissues you are trying to dealwith you should shy away from uppers in general as you are creating a bigger battle in your head to deal with after the come down. straining serotonin especially on ssri's willinduyyce youto be more depressive after and increases the risk of side effects.
I am talking from years of diferent tablets way before ssri'scame out. ssri'swont stop mdma working , just diferent experience as your receptors are busy being stimulated to help to fix your issues so you end up straining the brain.
this is how I had seretonin syndrome.

I will paste my doctors notes to do with this subject this eveningas readinghelped me to understand the damage being done.

bee

[Chris P]

SSRI's work by binding strongly to 5-HT receptor sites. I think 8mg of Sertraline (for example) will bind to 50% of sites. An 80%+ binding rate causes a clinical effect. Most regular SSRI doses will saturate 90%+ of 5HT receptors. They bind very strongly.

MDMA is supposed to work by reversing the Serotonin pump, which it can't do if most of the receptor sites have binded to a serotonin reuptake inhibitor.

MDMA (I think) can also act as an MAO-B inhibitor. If one was trying to chase the magic of MDMA without 5_HT sites that can bind to it this could possibly lead to Serotonin syndrome. I would avoid MDMA on SSRI's as it's highly unlikely you would feel the magic, just the dopaminergic effects.

When you take an SSRI, after several weeks of the synapses being flooded with Serotonin the brain will adapt by down-regulating 5-HT sites so they cannot bind. However, if you stop taking the medication upregulating these sites back to how they were takes many months.

I have just completely stopped the medication at least twice (not recommended - you should taper the dose). You end up with 'brain zaps' when you stop (or even miss a dose if it has a short half-life). This is a very weird feeling, kind of like the complete opposite to 'zooming' on MDMA. It's like the serotonergic neurones cannot fire properly due to a lack of 5HT in the synapse. The first time I stopped after a couple of months I went into a deep depression, a bit like "Suicide Tuesday" on MDMA except it lasted several months. The last time was a lot easier, I wasn't on the medication for as long as before and had a little pharmacological trick to deal with the withdrawal.

SSRI's are definitely over-prescribed. I would recommend anybody do their own research before taking this type of medication, and to try other methods first, maybe 5-HTP, St. John's Wort, Physical exercise, proper diet, etc.

SSRI's are far from being a perfect medication for treating anxiety & depression.

I feel I can cope better with stress without anti-depressants, although they did help coping in social situations and stopped be from becoming severely depressed. I'm glad I don't have to rely on having to take a medication everyday which can cause a difficult withdrawal and have a normal range of emotions.

It would be interesting to see where SSRI's would go on the harm scale. Definitely more harmful than Cannabis, it can cause suicides & violence and has a bad withdrawal.

With regards to the side effects, these normally subside after several weeks. It is often uncomfortable starting the medication and when changing dosage but you adapt to it.

Just cannabis will do for me, I just need to become self-sufficient again and find a strain which helps me the most.

e2a Ginseng also contains a chemical which is an MAO-B inhibitor (I think), and the method of action of St. John's wort is not understood, this too could well be acting as an MAO-B inhibitor.

This post has been edited by Chris P: 23 April 2012 - 10:35 AM

[boyzey1]

Chris P, on 23 April 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

SSRI's work by binding strongly to 5-HT receptor sites. I think 8mg of Sertraline (for example) will bind to 50% of sites. An 80%+ binding rate causes a clinical effect. Most regular SSRI doses will saturate 90%+ of 5HT receptors. They bind very strongly.

MDMA is supposed to work by reversing the Serotonin pump, which it can't do if most of the receptor sites have binded to a serotonin reuptake inhibitor.

MDMA (I think) can also act as an MAO-B inhibitor. If one was trying to chase the magic of MDMA without 5_HT sites that can bind to it this could possibly lead to Serotonin syndrome. I would avoid MDMA on SSRI's as it's highly unlikely you would feel the magic, just the dopaminergic effects.

When you take an SSRI, after several weeks of the synapses being flooded with Serotonin the brain will adapt by down-regulating 5-HT sites so they cannot bind. However, if you stop taking the medication upregulating these sites back to how they were takes many months.

I have just completely stopped the medication at least twice (not recommended - you should taper the dose). You end up with 'brain zaps' when you stop (or even miss a dose if it has a short half-life). This is a very weird feeling, kind of like the complete opposite to 'zooming' on MDMA. It's like the serotonergic neurones cannot fire properly due to a lack of 5HT in the synapse. The first time I stopped after a couple of months I went into a deep depression, a bit like "Suicide Tuesday" on MDMA except it lasted several months. The last time was a lot easier, I wasn't on the medication for as long as before and had a little pharmacological trick to deal with the withdrawal.

SSRI's are definitely over-prescribed. I would recommend anybody do their own research before taking this type of medication, and to try other methods first, maybe 5-HTP, St. John's Wort, Physical exercise, proper diet, etc.

SSRI's are far from being a perfect medication for treating anxiety & depression.

I feel I can cope better with stress without anti-depressants, although they did help coping in social situations and stopped be from becoming severely depressed. I'm glad I don't have to rely on having to take a medication everyday which can cause a difficult withdrawal and have a normal range of emotions.

It would be interesting to see where SSRI's would go on the harm scale. Definitely more harmful than Cannabis, it can cause suicides & violence and has a bad withdrawal.

With regards to the side effects, these normally subside after several weeks. It is often uncomfortable starting the medication and when changing dosage but you adapt to it.

Just cannabis will do for me, I just need to become self-sufficient again and find a strain which helps me the most.

e2a Ginseng also contains a chemical which is an MAO-B inhibitor (I think), and the method of action of St. John's wort is not understood, this too could well be acting as an MAO-B inhibitor.

I take my hat off to you fella , your words will help many people stuck in rut.

bee