[Lobo]

Hi all

In my DR60 I have three plants. Two are in Plagron Batmix and one is in coco. I wanted to do a side by side to see. They are in the first week of flower.

Up until a few days (week) ago the batmix plants were as healthy if not healthier than the coco plant. I was very pleased. However they have started to look poorly - purple spindly stems, lack of vigour and no fat healthy fan leaves being developed. They were showing signs of N def which so I gave them a feed of fishmix at 1.5 ml per litre.

This is the first feed they have had since starting in the batmix.

Now I thought immediately it was some kind of lockout due to temps but I have had a probe deep into the pots and have watched the root temps and they have not dropped below 20C. I have heating in the tent and the room is kept warm. It definitely isn't temps and my tent environment is bang on. The coco plant is absolutely loving it and the healthiest plant I've seen.

So I did a soil PH test and it came out very dark green / blueish which would indicate a soil PH of around 7.5 or slightly higher. Too high really.

Now I now the rule is don't bother with PH compost but I clearly have a compost with quite a high alkaline level. This would explain the N def I guess.

So should I add some citric acid to the feed or top dress with something? Or should I carry on as normal and hope the compost balances out?

Up until now I have only given them maxicrop, HESI root complex and bio silicon all separately. I never mix too many things together. Possibly the silicon helped raise the PH.

[Lobo]

I PH tested some fresh Batmix from the bag using a kit and it turned a nice light green colour - around 6.5 - 7. So the compost in the pots has lost some of it's buffering abilities or somehow I've caused an imbalance.

I shall continue to use fishmix at around 2 - 2.5ml ltr for the next week or so and hope the nitrogen / sulphur in it will help

[Percy Bud]

Hi Lobo, as ever, pics would really help.

Have you been letting the BM go through a wet/dry cycle? As overwatering could slow growth.

Also are you growing clones or seeds? If it's seeds it could be genetic.



The PH sounds fine to me. Even though the Bio-silicon can up the PH.
Nitrogen shouldn't get locked out at 7.5 PH.


Have you got any burnt tips on leaves? Could you be overdoing the seaweed plus root complex?

[Lobo]

Hi Percy

Yes I realised as I was posting the first thing I would be asked would be for pics but they were in their dark period and the house lights are shit for colours etc.

So in the cool frosty light of this morning this is how the worst one looks:




By comparison here is the coco girl:




I'm glad you think the PH is fine, that is reasurring except it means there is something else I have done. I know in the pic it looks ok but there is definitely a problem, growth has practically stooped.

I am growing Blues from clones. This is the third crop from the same mother. And my third attempt with batmix and possibly my last considering the ecological impact and the difference in coco. I have never got batmix 100% right but the one i did produced the best tasting buds ever so I thought try it again. This Blues pheno is very vigorous and sturdy. Lovely plant really

My wet and dry cycle I think has been very good, measuring the weight of pots I have been watering on average every 2 - 3 days. Like I said up until a week ago they were on par with the coco plant.

Another indication that something is wrong is that by today the batmix girls should be dry as Gandhi's flip flop. Well they are far from dry, still quite heavy in the pots so they are not taking up liquid hardly at all, therefore not growing. They look hungry but I cannot feed them by drench because they pots are heavy - maybe a foliar feed of fishmix?

I only use additives very, very sparingly. Maxicrop at 2ml/ltr, root stim at 2.5ml/ltr and bio silicon once a week at less than 0.5ml/ltr. Generally all separately but on occasion might have used maxi and root stim together.

In the first pic you will see the thermometer reading 20.7C at 5" deep inside the pots. This is around the lowest they will get and no higher that 22.7C.

I'd be surprised if anybody has a solution here. I'm just pissed at myself for doing something wrong and venting spleen, thinking out loud here. I shall try to nurse them along gently. Not overfeeding and wet / dry and all that.

Cheers for looking anyway. If things improve I'll post here hopefully with conclusions.

This post has been edited by Lobo: 10 February 2012 - 01:02 PM

[Green dazzler]

They dont look that bad to me but if the growth has slowed down and they aren't drinking it sounds like it could be over watering. Personally i wouldn't be chucking anything else at them till the soil has dried out a bit.

[Arnold Layne]

IMO, and that of many others, Ph is an irrelevance within the context of a good Potting Compost grow. Any half decent commercial compost will buffer the Ph (I'm assuming you grow in the UK using UK tap-water) perfectly well, and needs no help. In fact, by trying to fiddle with Ph you can do damage.

By the by, I'm really struggling to see any serious issues with your plants, they all look just fine to me. Mine (in compost) often change their rate of water uptake, its no biggie. I usually find my Blues gets very thirsty weeks 3 - 6 in 12/12, then starts to slow down the thirst, and by day 63 I'm often watering every 4 or even 5 days rather than every 3 days. And even in veg, the rate of uptake is never constant IME. Temperature, food availability, and whatever else, all seem to play a part in determining the complex rate at which a plant take up its water and its food.

HTH

[Lobo]

Hi guys

By my reckoning the last time this plant was watered was 8 days ago. This is only a 5 litre pot. Feeling the weight this morning it still needs a day or so. They are in second week of flowering so it should be drinking like a son of a bitch.

You have to admit, something is wrong here.

I'm 100% sure my wet/dry routine has been good. For this kind of lockout to happen I would have had to have been watering the pot when it was still quite wet, this has not been the case.

So I have poisoned the roots somehow? Two things possibly -

Maxicrop - the bottle is about a year old, maybe it is off. However I have used the same bottle for the coco plant and my mothers and cuttings. All are in prime health.

Stored water - I keep water in a bucket at room temp and to evaporate chlorine etc. The water can be in the bucket for a couple of days. I recently read OT suggest that keeping water like this may encourage pythium. Once again the same water has been used for all other plants here and all are fine.

Temps and environment especially root temps have been superb. The best controlled grow I have done here with this 250W setup

Some pics follow. It is hard to really see but the leaf colour and general health is very poor. Drab lime coloured leaves and very purple stems. I know you have seen unhappy plants so I hope you can understand.





The coco plant in the same environment is super healthy and threatening to take over the tent.

I am in mind to pull the sick plant, maybe both batmix plants if they don't shape up. My yield will be poor for these two not to mention weak potency and unhealthy buds. I don't want to grow poor second rate weed, those days are over

Anyway thanks Arnie and Green D for the advice and for looking in. Keep the ideas coming if you have any but, with respect, I'm on the front line here and I am baffled to fuck and seriously pissed off with myself.

[madgiz]

I think that plagron have changed their mix as the last batch I bought hardly had any twigs and sticks in it which I know should be a good thing but for the first time in years I have had no end of problems with the compost being to hot for clones that I have been growing for years..

Usually I find that it actually quite light on (N) and I am feeding grow nutes within 10 days of the final pot up which looks like you have the same stuff..(did you have lots of un-decomposed crap in your bag of compost..?)

The last batch I have used was all wrong and although my plants grew out of their problem it is not ideal..

Now you are feeding with grow nutes I am sure they will perk up, but don't expect them to perform as well in veg as the plant in coco as vegging plants in compost is a slow old game in comparison..

[Lobo]

Ahhh... Madgiz, is that a fact ol' mucker.

Well yes now you mention it the bag I have here did have a fair bit of solid dehydrated lumps in. I broke it up by hand and threw quite a bit of rubbish out. I actually threw in some coir, no more than a handful in each pot which helped fluff it up a bit.

I'm scratching my chin now thinking I might not be such a prick after all... well hopefully, no more than usual eh?

The last time I tried batmix was perhaps over a year ago. I thought it grew nice healthy plants but my inexperience helped mess them up. This time I poured all my learned knowledge of compost growing in and still it went to shit.

Maybe the batmix is poor now. To be honest they were lovely, even on par with the coco plant during veg and then in the last couple of weeks - el crapola

Ok I shall persevere a while longer, It's a shame to waste the plants but I know the buds won't be the shizzle I was hoping for. I really wanted some tasty organic weed too.

Cheers mate.

[Lobo]

Madgiz, if you happen to pop by and see this, what did you do to help the plants recover? Just let them struggle on or gentle feed with fishmix etc?

[PureSmkr]

Just having a stab in the dark here (& could be wrong) but if you potted up a couple of weeks before 12/12 and are now a week in, your plants will have had 3 weeks worth of nutes in what look to be smallish pots. My guess (whilst inexperienced) would be that they'll need some feed by now.

Hope you find the issue, BTW all the lumpy stuff in Batmix is packed full of slow-release goodness IMO & shouldn't be chucked

[Lobo]

Hi Puresmkr

Thats what I'm thinking and they are showing signs of N def. However I cannot give them any root drench until the compost has dried out sufficiently, which is the problem here they are not drinking hardly anything.

I did give them a foliar feed of fishmix at 1.5ml per litre the other night but it didn't seem to have much effect. In another day or so the worst one should be ready for a decent root feed again (after 9 days between waterings) so hopefully it will pick up soon.

The lumpy hard/ dry bits were compacted peat or bark or something. I think the main nutrients will be from guano and worm compost which break up very easy generally.

[madgiz]

Yep get them on grow nutes until about week 2 or 3 of flower and then switch to bloom..

[Green dazzler]

It would be interesting to hear how they turn out Lobo. I would think if upped nutes stop the yellowing and the growth picks up too we would be sure its just the bat mix running out of nutrients. If it gets worse and the plants still aint drinking then we can be pretty sure its a root problem. Anyone agree?

[Lobo]

 Green dazzler, on 14 February 2012 - 10:39 AM, said:

It would be interesting to hear how they turn out Lobo. I would think if upped nutes stop the yellowing and the growth picks up too we would be sure its just the bat mix running out of nutrients. If it gets worse and the plants still aint drinking then we can be pretty sure its a root problem. Anyone agree?

Well I'll certainly agree Green d, you are, as they say, hitting the nail on it's proverbial head

This morning the worst batmix plant felt light enough for a root drench so I hit it with fishmix at 4.5ml in 2 ltrs. Strong enough hopefully to give it some goodies but not too strong. I have never used fishmix stronger than 3ml/ltr.

Upon opening the tent I was greeted with the lovely sight of the tent floor covered with yellow leaves that the worst plant had shed:




As you can see in the second pic some of the leaves are showing necrotic patches. This is deficiency not fungal, the necrosis is between the veins. I'm hardly Oldtimer 1 here but maybe it's calcium def? Let me tell you chaps, this plant is dying slowly. I mean if she had a voice all I would hear would be a harrowing wail from the tent, a sickening moan. The poor girl.

I actually thought of sending OT1 a PM to have a look at the thread, but hell, the man has enough on his plate cooking up stunning ganja strains.

Some good news: The second batmix plant is definitely showing signs of improvement, if she had cheeks there would be a flush of colour there. This second plant has been drinking slightly quicker so I had the chance to root drench sooner. It's a good sign hopefully.

Thanks again for the interest and support lads. I'll be updating with the results of the recent fishmix feed soon.

e2a: thoughts: If it was an ideal world and I had the space I would pull the sick plant from under the HPS and rest it under a gentle CFL for a week maybe. The extra light here is only stressing it further.

This post has been edited by Lobo: 14 February 2012 - 12:56 PM